Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by NEBULA.SYSTEMSZ.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 14:08:28 -0500
Received: from YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 13:43:45 -0500
Message-Id: <199312061843.AA04827@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)    with BSMTP id 7484; Mon, 06 Dec 93 14:06:53 EST
Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with  BSMTP id 2084; Mon, 06 Dec 93 14:07:17 EDT
Date:         Mon, 6 Dec 1993 14:05:16 -0500
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      If I were King... (fwd)
X-To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: RO
X-Status: 
X-From-Space-Date: Mon Dec  6 09:05:16 1993
X-From-Space-Address: @YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET

Yet another relayed message from the loglanists list, with Lojban translation:

> Date: 05 Dec 93 21:57:06 EST
> From: James Jennings <70740.1237@compuserve.com>
> Message-Id: <931206025705_70740.1237_CHG52-4@CompuServe.COM>
>
> Hoi Raban, kae,
  coi rodos. ???
>
> How would one say, "If I were King..." in Loglan?
>
> My first thought is
>   Kanoi mi bragai ki ...
    ganai mi nolraitru gi ...

(The actual metaphor is "jbetru", born-to-rule, which is pretty awful;
Loglan has no equivalent of "nobli".)

> There is a problem with that. The simple logic of 'kanoi' is too powerful. Any
> statement of the form "If <false statement> then <true statement>." is true.
>   If I were King, then pigs would fly.
> is true because I'm not King. Swinish aviation is irrelevant.
>   If the Earth were flat then 1+1=2.
> is true because the Earth is not flat.
>   If the Earth were flat then 1+1=3.
> is true because the Earth is not flat. It has nothing to do with the
> properties of integers.
>
> But if I say,
>   If I were King I would outlaw Garfield dolls.
> I am (probably) making a serious claim about a possible future.
>
> If I say
>   If I were president, I would live in the White House.
> most people would say that I've made a true and significant observation about
> the world. But its logically empty, because I'm *not* president.
>
> So how do I say "If I were King" in a way that means what normal people
> usually mean?
>
> hue Djeimz
  mi'e djeimyz.

I believe that this question is a serious one that must be confronted
head-on; no mere attitudinal wafflings about "da'i = subjunctive" will
resolve it.  I have at present no ideas (I also have at present a nasty
head cold), but the assembled (or disassembled) Lojbanists undoubtedly do.
Have at, please.

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.