Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0p7ATR-0000PYC; Wed, 8 Dec 93 00:01 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with BSMTP id 7946; Wed, 08 Dec 93 00:01:52 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7944; Wed, 8 Dec 1993 00:01:52 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8920; Tue, 7 Dec 1993 23:00:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 18:55:40 GMT Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0125%oasis.icl.co.uk@FINHUTC.hut.fi Sender: Lojban list From: Iain Alexander Subject: Re: If I were King... (fwd) X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1892 Lines: 42 I'm not convinced there's a genuine problem here. > There is a problem with that. The simple logic of 'kanoi' is too powerful. Any > statement of the form "If then ." is true. > If I were King, then pigs would fly. > is true because I'm not King. Swinish aviation is irrelevant. This is only half the story. The speaker is not king at the present time, in the real ({ca'a}) world, but in the hypothetical world which we want to talk about, he is, and the truth of the statement once more relies on swinish aviation as you would expect. Straightforward predicate calculus and propositional calculus concerns itself with a simple world (model) where statements are either true or false. It doesn't deal with complications like tense or hypothetical worlds, which are a vital part of language. The truth of propositions varies with time, and we consider alternative realities with very little ceremony. (I believe there are extensions to predicate calculus which (attempt to) deal with these issues, although I'm not familiar with them.) So I believe that a simple {da'i} is indeed a totally adequate indication that a hypothetical {ganai ... gi} situation is being discussed, notwithstanding the many other methods we no doubt have available (Mark's {va'o lenu}, Jorge's {lenu ... zo'u} ... let me chip in {ca ro nu [da'i] mi nolraitru ku}). Robert J. Chassell: > Yes, definitely. How would you say: > John would have gone to Edinburgh, but it was unexpectedly sunny > so he stayed in England. One way would be to state that he _intended_ to go to Edinburgh la djan. platu filenu klama la .Edinbur. (platu pla plan 'plot' x1 (agent) plans/designs/plots plan/arrangement/plot/(schematic) x2 for state/process x3 8c 7 the structure of an object would be represented as a state in x3) mi'e .i,n.