Message-Id: <m0p7LOq-0000PYC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Wed, 8 Dec 1993 04:38:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Logical Language Group <lojbab%ACCESS.DIGEX.NET@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Logical Language Group <lojbab%ACCESS.DIGEX.NET@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
Subject:      responses to Jorge on fat gismu
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 5040
Lines: 108

Responses to some of Jorge's comments on fat gismu

>4- The x3 of {sorcu} restricts it to supplies stored in a single place.
>Since {vasru} is already there for container, I don't think {sorcu}
>needs to be so restricted.  In general, supplies need not be in a
>container.

Your discussion with Chassell clearly showed that there are two
different concepts here.  Yours is sabji, for which x1 was ambiguous
between the supply and the supplier.  I have clarified this, and
specified sabgau for agentive supply.

>6- I'd much prefer the author x3 out of {cfika}.  I realize that in our
>copyrighted society the author can't be ignored, but I remember how much
>I enjoyed reading as a child, when I was blissfully unaware of the
>existence of such things as an authors, it was simply not a part of the
>story.  The author is already in {lisri}, and there is a simple BAI for
>it, so why not leave {cfika} author-free?  (Same for {pixra})

Actually, lisri has a >storyteller<, who need not be the author of the
story (indeed a true story does not have an 'author' per se), and need
not be fictional.  Thus cfika is not comparable to lisri.  Meanwhile
cfika is specifically labelled a 'work' of fiction, and hence must have
been invented.  The only other concepts of 'fiction' I can relate to are
nalfacti, naljetnu, and xanri.  Most children's stories where author is
so unknown as to be irrelevant would fall into the category of ranmi.
Indeed, veryranmi is probably a good word for 'fairy tale'.

>8- I don't see why the x3 of {diklu} is not a part of its x2.

diklu?  I don't see how this comment could apply to diklo, for which x2
and x3 MUST be different.  A locus is a specific, which needs an
associated larger and more general range in order to be meaningful.

>9- {finti} without an x3 seems to be just as useful (and makes more
>sense for composes/authors).  It seems that two different ideas were
>fused into one.  (A real artist will not have a purpose for their
>creations!  :)

Yes, two ideas are being crammed into one.  But compatible ones - I
think; the purpose of art is, hopefully, expression of an idea or
emotional state, or possibly entertainment.  It is rough to take it out,
since finti is the basis of fi'i BAI (which is one reason the concepts
were jammed together).

>10- The language places in {jufra} and {tavla} seem to me like having a
>place for colour in {bolci} for example.  It's not an important aspect
>of the concept (especially of {tavla}).  I suppose Lojbanists are
>inordinately language- conscious, though.

language-free tavla is casnu, or cusku (though the media place of cusku
could specify a language, since it is rather vague in semantics).  What
constitutes a 'sentence' is very much a language-dependent thing.
Likewise, 'word'.  se cusku is a non-language specific expression (though
cusku again COULD include a language in x4).

>11- I'm not sure what the x3 of {pikci} is, but it seems like it would
>be a part of x2.

Clarified. I hope, with the following synonyms:

[also importune, petition, plea, solicit; x2 benefactor, patron; x3
boon, favor, gift, alms]

Note also that cpedu has an x4 manner, whereas the manner is implicit in
pikci (respectful, supplicant)

>12- If the x4 of plipe is important, it has to merge with the x2, I
>can't think of a resaon to have both.

Trying to cover both jump >up< (to x4) and jump >to< (as in final
position), which is x2, in one bridi.  Only for the limited case where
the place you are jumping to is at the highest point of your trajectory
would the two be the same.  As the clarifying notes say, the place
structure parallels klama, and x4 is route-like while x2 is a
destination.

>13- I don't understand the x3 of {ckiku}, what relevant properties?

Tied to the Lojban concept of a tool/apparatus as a relation between
form and function.  There are some properties of a key that enable it to
be used as a key for the particular lock.  Other properties are
irrelevant.

x3 is dependent on the type of key, but are those form properties of the
key that enable it to serve the function - in the case of a metal key to
a padlock, for example, this would be the shaft and teeth.  There are
always such features distinguishable by their relevance to function, but
there is no English word for this category of properties.

There are a couple of other gismu with broad categories of relevant
information crammed into a single place, including many of the tool
gismu and as mentioned above the x4 of cusku.  We are merely trying to
keep the number of places small. klupe and vraga are examples of similar
situations where the places were not combined, since they (x3 and x4)
were few in number and applied to the entire range. jendu and daplu are
like ckiku. grep on "properties" to find some others.

>15- I was surprised that {misno} doesn't have an x3 place, but that's
>ok.

It is possible to be simply well-known or renowned, especially in a
smaller community, without being well-known for some particular
feature/event/trait/etc.

lojbab

lojbab