Message-Id: <m0pUsqJ-0000QAC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Fri, 11 Feb 1994 00:04:00 PST
Reply-To:     Gerald Koenig <jkoenig@HATCH.SOCAL.COM>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Gerald Koenig <jkoenig@HATCH.SOCAL.COM>
Subject:      Re: cukta
To:         lojbab@access.digex.net
Cc:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Length: 2052
Lines: 49

Jorge has said:
      "        But what does it mean to say:
        "The Divine Comedy" is a literary work by author Dante preserved
in media paper  (or pages, or whatever).

        It may be true, but it is not an important piece of information
about the literary work.  The medium may be important if we are referring
to a particular copy, but not to the work itself, which may be preserved
in many media, and saying so gives no information at all." (End quote).

        If I understand, Jorge feels that the present 5 sumpti
structure constrains him from speaking of the work itself, and
forces him to deal with irrelevent information.

        Consider this example:
        Do cu ba tavla ro lo cukta fa li Divine Comedy li'u
        fe li Dante li'u

        I intend this to translate as:
        We are now talking about the work,"The Divine Comedy"
        by Dante.

        I intend the phrase "ro lo cukta"  to mean all that really
        is the entire body of text that is the work, whether
               located in a classroom, at an ftp site, memorized by
               someone, or the original manuscript. It is the information.
               It is the work.

               If this is incorrect lojban, will someone do it for me as I
               am sure it is possible to say this.

        This is without reference to any specific hardcopies,
        using the current cukta definition.

        I believe we should give up the word "book," with its
        solid image, as a descriptor for the X1 position: its
        use as a keyword should still be O.K.

        I have to leave this thread for a while as I am having
        too many problems with my local internet node to continue.

        Jorge, I don't know you but I want to thank you for
        initiating an intensely interesting discussion.  I am
        sure the outcome will be beneficial for lojban.

        Lojbab, thanks for re-posting me, I hope this is the last
        time I will have to ask you.

jkoenig@hatch.socal.com                     djer.