Message-Id: <m0pT3rP-0000Q9C@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sun, 6 Feb 1994 02:22:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: cukta
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2183
Lines: 38

This one was much debated at a LogFest a couple of years ago.  The question
was whether a physical book with no text was a book (you can buy these in
the store for use as diaries, etc.), and if so, who was the author, what
was the subject, etc.  Then we asked whether a book on microfilm or computer
was a book, even though it did not have the physical form - it does have all
the other relevant places though.  Then we asked whether an anthology - a
bound volume that migh contain several 'books' in it like the Bible is one
book or many; likewise whether a multi-volume work of prose is one book or
many.

The result was to treat the gismu as referring to the work and not to the
physical object - it is most in keeping with the natural place structure
and the widest range of usages for the word in English and in other languages.
(Feel free to disagree on the latter if you know better - the multilingual
dictionaries aren't too clear on this).

Two copies of War and Peace on paper COULD be one or two values for x5
- the value is le selpapri or lei re selpapri.

I can weasel on the text samples you give, except one.  Except that one, we
are dealing with "le" cukta.  And in any case, I think all of the sentences
except that one work if "le cukta" refers to the text in the book as well as
the book.  The other might depend on whether the text is in brown ink, or
whether the selpapri is brown %^).

A hidden question is whether le cukta, as well as le pemci and all other forms
of expression are the words themselves or a copy of the words in some media.
The existence of x5 means that it is the latter - two copies of War and Peace
are re cukta as well as re xe cukta (unless both copies are in a single volume)

The term 'convention' is Cowan's, and is used in all of the works of authorship
to refer to some other thing that a body of text/music has that might not be
well-labelled as 'subject'.  This allows us to include the 'subject'place which
is almost always relevant, without having to zi'o it for those rare works
that do not have a 'subject'.  (Actually musical compositions are a bit more
common in being written to a convention rather than a subject).

lojbab