Message-Id: <199402081828.AA03645@eli.CS.YALE.EDU>
Date:         Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:36:56 EST
Reply-To: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@GRACKLE.STOCKBRIDGE.MA.US>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>
From: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@GRACKLE.STOCKBRIDGE.MA.US>
Subject:      Re: cukta
To: Erik Rauch <rauch>
Status: RO

When the Lojban lessons refer to `cukta', they refer to instances of
what some people have defined humorously as {fu'e zo'o} low-tech,
`Built-in Orderly Organized Knowledge' artifacts, that, through the
acronym became called "BOOKs".  {fu'o}

<see glossary of discursives at end of message>

{paunai} Rhetorically, let me ask, Should this continue, or should we
change the word used in the lessons, or change the definition of
`cukta'?

{to'u} In brief, {pe'i} in my opinion, `cukta' should be changed to
`selpapri' in the lessons; and, the definition of `cukta' should be
amended such that its use in the lessons is actually correct
({ki'unai} even though it is no longer used in the lessons)

{to'unai} Let me explain what I mean in detail.  Art Protin is correct
when he says that "The work is software and is medium independent."
{ku'i} However, conventional meanings are slow to change.

{du'eroi} More often than I wish, I find myself editing and publishing
stretches of text that can either be marked onto paper as a
conventional printed book or be copied into a computer system as
hypertext information.

{da'inai} As a practical matter, I find that I need to specify the
word "printed" when I refer to hard copy publications, otherwise, some
people become confused and think I am refering to an on-line version
{po'o} only.  For example,

    A Texinfo file can be formatted and typeset as a printed book or manual.

    A Texinfo-based book is similar to any other typeset, printed work: ...

{zu'unai} On the other hand, I avoid referring to an on-line hypertext
document as a `book'; instead, I say,

    From the same Texinfo source file, you can create a menu-driven,
    on-line Info file ...

{na'o} Typically, I refer to an on-line version as a `file', `copy',
or `document'.  {sa'e} Speaking precisely, both `copy' and `document'
are ambiguous as to medium.  When I say "I have a copy of `Pride and
Prejudice'", I may be refering either to my printed hard copy or my
on-line electronic copy.  I have both.  The medium depends on context.

{ta'e} My habit is to use the word `book' to refer to a printed,
physical artifact, real or imagined, but I do not do this always.
{ja'a} For sure, I find it necessary to specify "printed" when I am
specifically referring to a hardcopy version of the `work'.  (I often
use the word `document' to refer to texts that are both on-line and
printed as hardcopy.)

{pe'i} I think it is likely that for the next few years, when you say
`book' without other context, people will assume you mean an artifact
constructed by binding sheets of paper together.

{da'i} Suppose, however, that someone finds you curled up in bed
reading a display on a flat, lightweight, rectangular, magazine-sized
device. If you say, "what a a great book", that person won't think the
physical device is the book, he or she will presume that the text you
are reading is the book.

{su'anai} To get to particulars, all this leads me to suggest that
`cukta' be kept almost as-is, with an addition to its definition
saying that the fifth place, if not otherwise specified, is for now
presumed to be `lo papri' as a default.

The new version of the definition looks like this:

    cukta     cku      book <> x1 is a book about subject/theme/story x2 by
       author x3 for audience x4 preserved in medium x5 <>

       [this is a quantity of text, and not the physical object (=
       selpapri); however, by default x5 = lo papri.  <unless, over
       the next years, the usual medium in which books are preserved
       changes.>

       x2 may be a convention rather than
       a subject]; (cf. cfika, prina, prosa, tcidu, papri)

where `papri' is defined as it is now as:

    papri              page 'paper' <> x1 is a [physical] page/leaf of
       book/document/bound mass of pages x2 <> [page as a

{ku'i} However, the referents in the Lojban lessons are to books in
the sense of `bound masses of pages'.  Students would be less confused
if `cukta' were changed to `selpapri' in those cases, {ki'unai} even
though the new definition `cukta' applies.

The `blank book' you can buy in a store is an instance of `lo
selpapri' without any printing, i.e. a bound mass of pages.  (Based on
what Jorge Llambias said, in Spanish, this might be translated as
"cuaderno".)  `cukta' may not be used for `blank book'.


Here is a summary of the various concepts we are discussing:

  * for composition;  `selfinti' or `seltcidu' or the new definition
    of `cukta'.

    finti fin     fi'i invent <> x1 invents/creates/composes/authors x2 for
       function/purpose x3 from existing elements/ideas x4 =
       <> [x1 is creative/inventive]; (cf. cmavo list fi'e,
       ciska, pemci, zbasu, larcu, specific works of
       authorship, prosa, skina)

    (Would a Spaniard translate `selfinti' as "obra", or a Roman translate
    `selfinit' as the Latin "opus"?  I think so.)

    tcidu tid          read <> x1 [agent] reads x2 [text] from
       surface/document/reading material x3; x1 is a reader <>
       (cf. ciska, cukta, karni)

    <new definition>
    cukta     cku      book <> x1 is a book about subject/theme/story x2 by
       author x3 for audience x4 preserved in medium x5 <>
       [this is a quantity of text, and not the physical
       object (= selpapri); however, by default x5 = lo papri.
       <unless the usual medium in which books are preserved changes.>
       x2 may be a convention rather than
       a subject]; (cf. cfika, prina, prosa, tcidu, papri)


  * for an on-line copy   `vreji' or `selciska' or `selcusku'

    vreji rej     vei  record <> x1 is a record of x2 (data/facts/du'u) about
       x3 (object/event) preserved in medium x4 = <>
       (cf. sorcu, datni, papri)

    ciska         ci'a write 'scribe' <> x1 inscribes/writes x2 on
       display/storage medium x3 with writing implement x4; x1
       is a scribe <> [also x3 writing surface]; (cf. papri,
       penbi, pinsi, tcidu, xatra, pixra, prina, finti for
       'author' or specific authorial works, barna, pinka)

    cusku cus sku      express <> x1 (agent) expresses/says x2
       (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience x3 via
       expressive medium x4 <> [also says]; (cf. bacru, tavla,
       casnu, spuda, cmavo list cu'u, bangu, dapma, jufra,
       pinka)

  * for a printed hardcopy:   `selpapri' or `cukta'

    papri              page 'paper' <> x1 is a [physical] page/leaf of
       book/document/bound mass of pages x2 <> [page as a
       quantity of text (= paprysfe, paprysfelai)];
       (cf. karni, pelji, prina, xatra, vreji, pezli, cukta,
       ciska)


    Robert J. Chassell               bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu
    Rattlesnake Mountain Road        bob@grackle.stockbridge.ma.us
    Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA   (413) 298-4725


Here is a glossary of discursives and other indicators, in order of
appearance:

fu'e                                    begin indicator long scope
fu'o                                    end indicator scope

zo'o                                    humorously

{paunai} Rhetorically, let me ask,      rhetorical question

{to'u} In brief,                        skipping details

{pe'i} in my opinion,                   I opine

{ki'unai} even though                   despite reason

{to'unai} Let me explain what I mean in detail.         in detail

{ku'i} However                          make an exception to previous argument

{du'eroi} More often than I wish,       too-many times

{da'inai} As a practical matter         real-world point of view

{po'o} only                             the only relevant case

{zu'unai} On the other hand             on the other hand

{na'o} Typically                        characteristically/typically

{ta'e} My habit is                      habitually  (time tense)

{ja'a} For sure                         bridi affirmer

{pe'i} I think                          I opine

{da'i} Suppose                          non-real-world viewpoint

{su'anai} To get to particulars         I particularize

{ku'i} However                          make an exception to previous argument

{ki'unai} even thought                  despite reason