Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0pSwTE-0000Q9C; Sun, 6 Feb 94 01:31 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0457; Sun, 06 Feb 94 01:31:11 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0455; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 01:31:11 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1754; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 00:30:23 +0100 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 16:49:27 EST Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: cukta X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1906 Lines: 59 The gi'uste says: ------------------ cukta cku book x1 is a book about subject/theme/story x2 by author x3 for audience x4 preserved in medium x5 1f 163 [this is a quantity of text, and not the physical object (= selpapri); x2 may be a convention rather than a subject]; (cf. cfika, prina, prosa, tcidu) ------------------- In the lessons, there are many examples that use {cukta} as a physical object. For example: lesson01: do cu darxi la suzn. le birka ku le cukta ku (1.4-13) lesson01: ta cu darxi le stedu ku le cukta ku (1.6-5) (Different place structures for {darxi} here, also) lesson08: alis.: mi cu lebna le bunre ku .i le bunre ku cu cukta lesson08: alis.: .u'u le cukta ku cu farlu .i le cukta ku cu cnita le stizu ku lesson08: rik.: le cukta ku cu jibni mi .i mi cu cpacu le cukta ku le loldi ku lesson12: 2: ko [cu] catlu .i le cukta [ku] cu galtu lesson12: 1: mi [cu] birti le nu mi [cu] punji le cukta [ku] le stizu [ku] [kei] [ku] lesson17: A: ko cpacu le xunre cukta le jubme lesson18: ko dunda le cukta le ninmu poi pritu la djan. lesson19: le verba cu bevri le cukta And there are many others. I agree with the lessons, rather than with the gi'uste (they are closer to what 'usage' is, no?). If we want to insist that it is not a physical object, then we should not use 'book' in the definition, no matter how helpful it is as a keyword, because a book is in the first place a physical object, and the more abstract meaning of 'work' ("obra" in Spanish, "verko" in Esp-o), is, I think, secondary. Are two copies of "War and Peace" that are preserved in different media one {cukta}, or two {cukta}? If one, then the x5 place is wrong, if two, then we are talking of the physical object. As an aside, I also don't understand the comment that x2 may be a convention. Jorge