Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0pe7AO-0000R2C; Tue, 8 Mar 94 21:10 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7146; Tue, 08 Mar 94 21:09:56 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7145; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 21:09:57 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5934; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 20:08:53 +0100 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: John Cowan eats crow about {co} X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 2575 Lines: 56 Well, it turns out that I have been preaching a heretical gospel about {co} tanru for some time. lojbab finally straightened me out on the phone, after Jorge pointed out some difficulties and discrepancies in my previous account that I had been sweeping under the rug. Here is the one word of truth about {co} conversion, as I now understand it (terminology: "seltanru" is the modifier, or left-hand, member of a tanru; "tertanru" is the modificand, or right-hand, member.): In normal tanru, the seltanru always precedes the tertanru. By inserting the particle {co}, however, the order can be changed. Examples 1 and 2 mean exactly the same thing: 1) ta blanu zdani That is-a-blue type-of-house. That is a blue house. 2) ta zdani co blanu That is-a-house of-type blue. That is a blue house. This change is called "tanru inversion". The meaning, and more specifically, the place structure, of a tanru is not affected by inversion: the place structure of "zdani co blanu" is still that of "zdani". However, the existence of inversion in a selbri has a very special effect on any sumti which follow that selbri. Instead of being interpreted as filling places of the selbri, they actually fill the places (starting with x2) of the seltanru. Normally, filling interior places is done with "be...bei...be'o", and in fact Examples 3 and 4 have the same meaning: 3) mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'o troci I am-a-(goer to the market from the house) type-of trier. I try to go to the market from the house. 4) mi troci co klama le zarci le zdani I am-a-trier of-type (goer to-the market from-the house). I try to go to the market from the house. Example 4 requires fewer cmavo and less embedding, but means exactly the same thing. Sumti which precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places of the selbri (i.e., the places of the tertanru) in the ordinary way. In Example 4, "mi" fills the x1 place of "troci co klama", which is the x1 place of "troci". The other places of the selbri remain unfilled. The trailing sumti "le zarci" and "le zdani" do not occupy selbri places, despite appearances. As a result, the regular mechanisms (involving selma'o VOhA and GOhI, explained elsewhere) for referring to individual sumti of a bridi cannot refer to any of the trailing places of Example 4, because they are not really "sumti of the bridi" at all. -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.