Message-Id: <199406262208.AA15456@nfs1.digex.net>
Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Date: Sun Jun 26 18:08:58 1994
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Question about the Lojban dictionary...
X-To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@access.digex.net>
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Sun Jun 26 18:08:58 1994
X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU

la mar.k cusku di'e

> I'm just starting to learn Lojban, and I found the diagex (in the HTML files)
> to be quite good -- although it didn't leave me with enough of a vocabulary
> to say much more than "the school is blue-green".

I visited the WWW pages a few times, and they're really good. My compliments
to Veijo.

To learn vocabulary, you need the gismu list, which you can get from the
ftp site.

> So I turned to the dictionary, only to find that many of the entries have
> strange formulae after them.  For example, <bacycta> says "look through:"
> and then "c1=b3b2" (subscripts).
>
> What are these strange equations?  The closest I can come to a guess is that
> they represent different attributes that the words presume, or that they
> represent how the words can be used in some linguistic sense.

The strange formulae tell you (or at least suggest) what is the place
structure of the lujvo in terms of the place structure of the component
gismu.

> In addition, these words seem to be neither gismu nor cmavo (nor rafsi, of
> course).  So the header indicates that they must be lujvo?

Exactly.

> Can I assume,
> then, that they are used as the selbri?  And if so, how can you tell what
> bridi are necessary?

From your example:

  bacycta       look through: c1=b3 b2

(It seems that the spaces are not shown properly in the WWW display)
{bacycta} is formed from the two gismu {bancu} and {catlu}:

  bancu bac          beyond
  x1 exceeds/is beyond limit/boundary x2 from x3 in property/amount x4 (ka/ni)

  catlu     cta      look
  x1 looks at/examines/views/inspects/regards/watches/gazes at x2


c1=b3 tells you that the first place of {bacycta} is the first place
of {catlu}, the looker (c1), and the third place of {bancu}, the reference
for beyond (b3). The second place is the boundary of beyond (b2)

I would have written it as: c1=b3 (c2=b1) b2
Some of the entries use this parnethesis notation to show places of the
gismu that are not present in the final lujvo because they've been filled.

Then we have:

  bacycta       x1=c1 looks at something (c2=b1) that is beyond x2=b2
                from x1=b3

                x1 looks through x2

(I'm ignoring the "property/amount" place because I'm not sure what to do
with it.)

Another example:

  pafybu'a        uncle: b1 p2

comes from:

  patfu paf     pa'u father
  x1 is a father of x2; x1 begets/sires/acts paternal towards x2;
  [not necessarily biological]

  bruna bun     bu'a brother
  x1 is brother of/fraternal to x2 by bond/tie/standard/parent(s) x3;
  [not necess. biological]

Again, I would have written it: b1 (b2=p1) p2
Then we have:

        x1=b1 is a brother of (b2=p1) the father of x2=p2
        x1 is an uncle of x2

To learn vocabulary, my advice is to start with the gismu and leave
lujvo for later. Most of the lujvo listed have never been used more
than once anyway, so it may not be worth it to learn them.

>
> Thanks much...

You're very welcome. I hope we keep hearing from you, there haven't
been many questions from beginners lately.

>
>                                 Mar.k
>

Jorge