From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Fri Jun 17 12:34:08 1994 Message-Id: <199406171628.AA22202@nfs1.digex.net> Date: Fri Jun 17 12:34:08 1994 Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: sumti categories X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier Status: RO la lojbab cusku di'e > sumti places are explicitly NOT limited to one category. Pragmatically, it > may be rare to use a category 'error', but we don;t want to forbid it. I agree that any rule would be just pragmatic, but since different categories give different meaning to the gismu, to know the category is useful in order to understand the meaning of the gismu. For instance, {djica} means "x1 wants x2", where x2 can only be an event. If this was not explicited in the list, I might think that an object was also allowed. On the other hand {spuda}, "x1 responds to x2", explicitly allows both object or event in x2, i.e. it's polysemous (is that the right technical word?). In this case, there is no sumti raising because when using an object we are using the second meaning of the gismu. > I rather like being able to think of "la lojbab" as an event - it had a > beginning, and presumably will have an end ... Of course, events can be given names. But just because the "object" called lojbab, and the "event" called lojbab have the same name, it doesn't mean they are the same thing. The only problem in this case, is that if someone says {spuda la lojbab}, we don't know whether they mean a response to lojbab the person or to the event that you call lojbab. (In the first case, it would be a response to some action of lojbab's, in the second, a response to the whole event that had a beginning and presumably will have an end.) > Likewise other concrete sumti can be treated as abstracts, and if we were > SURE that sumti raising is NOT taking place, the semantic usefulness of > being able to cross between categories could be Sapir-Whorfianly important. For some gismu (like spuda), sumti raising is allowed, for others, (like djica), it isn't. This means that we can never be sure if sumti raising is taking place unless we have the gismu list handy. The only way that the place can force a category on the sumti that fills it is if the place has a strict category assigned, otherwise, the sumti will rule, modifying the meaning of the selbri to suit the type of sumti. Jorge