Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0qSmhC-000023C; Tue, 26 Jul 94 16:37 EET DST Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8910; Tue, 26 Jul 94 16:36:05 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8907; Tue, 26 Jul 1994 16:36:05 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9599; Tue, 26 Jul 1994 15:35:01 +0200 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 14:31:12 BST Reply-To: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Sender: Lojban list From: Colin Fine Subject: Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1250 Lines: 38 I think Nick has given us a very valuable explication of the "ga'i" problem, but we're still in knots. I would like to propose a Gordian solution: "ga'i" is not an honorific. Ga'i (ga'inai) expresses an attitude of hauteur (humility) >on the part of the speaker >in respect of (not >relative to) the item it's attached to. (OK, so a bare ga'i is honorific of the self, but that's not in the usual gamut of honorifics). Any honorific effect is a contextually (and presumably socially) determined pragmatic consequence, not in the semantics of the UI Thus in the original =JL> > 7.1) ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani =JL> > you-imperative [low-rank!] enter type-of come-to my house. =JL> > Honorable one, enter my unworthy house. the literal translation is quite correct, and the 'normal' (? looks more like cod-Chinese to me) one is plausible but not forced: it could equally be "I humbly instruct you to come in to my splendid house", though I accept that this is less plausible. Nick's example le patfu cu klama vauga'inai means Father is coming (and I am humble about that) It says nothing whatever about whether I am honoring father, the hearer, both or neither. ju'asai mi'e kolin