Message-Id: <199407261346.AA19753@nfs1.digex.net>
Reply-To: C.J.Fine@bradford.ac.uk
Date: Tue Jul 26 09:46:52 1994
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Colin Fine <C.J.Fine@bradford.ac.uk>
Subject:      Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@access.digex.net>
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Tue Jul 26 09:46:52 1994
X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU

I think Nick has given us a very valuable explication of the "ga'i"
problem, but we're still in knots. I would like to propose a Gordian
solution:

"ga'i" is not an honorific.


Ga'i (ga'inai) expresses an attitude of hauteur (humility) >on the part of
the speaker >in respect of (not >relative to) the item it's attached to.

(OK, so a bare ga'i is honorific of the self, but that's not in the usual
gamut of honorifics).

Any honorific effect is a contextually (and presumably socially) determined
pragmatic consequence, not in the semantics of the UI

Thus in the original
=JL> > 7.1)    ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani
=JL> >         you-imperative [low-rank!] enter type-of come-to my house.
=JL> >         Honorable one, enter my unworthy house.

the literal translation is quite correct, and the 'normal' (? looks more
like cod-Chinese to me) one is plausible but not forced: it could equally
be
        "I humbly instruct you to come in to my splendid house",

though I accept that this is less plausible.

Nick's example
        le patfu cu klama vauga'inai

means
        Father is coming (and I am humble about that)

It says nothing whatever about whether I am honoring father, the hearer,
both or neither.

        ju'asai mi'e kolin