Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 00:36:47 -0400
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab>
Message-Id: <199407280436.AA21521@access1.digex.net>
To: ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Lojbanized German place names
Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net, lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Thu Jul 28 00:36:56 1994
X-From-Space-Address: lojbab

Th argument that roundedness does not count is based simply on the fact that
we defined the vowels positionally, according to the standard v-shaped vowel
diagram, which ignores roundedness.  I was not very lingusitically knowledgeable
at the time, and my colleagues (Nora, Gary, and Tommy - who is the only one
of these now on the net to defend himself) who knew more didn't mention the
issue.

The question of roundedness never got raised until after the phonology/
morphology got baselined, and we are firmly committed to not playing around
with baselines for any reason other than a serious problem.

As to Lojbanizing names - the theory of Loglan/Lojban has allways been based
on the linguistic dogma (such that it is) that the spoken language has
precedence over the written language (which linguists for the most part
derogate if not ignore).  Thus the rules for Loglanization (and later
Lojbanization) of words for making the gismu based on recognition scores
were based on dictionary-style pronunciation guides (i.e. phonemes) rather
than spellings, in so far as we were able.  The Lojbanization rules for
names are just modified forms of the rules for making gismu by the
grind-and-mix-phonemes method.

I have weakened myself on the idea that oral recognition should be the
most important, especially since m,ost Lojbanists will learn Lojban from
printed materials.  But tradition and linguistic prejudice against written
language are stacked against spelling-based Lojbanization.

Furthermore, the earlier Lojbanists seem to have agreed with the concept.
Two people from around here have delighted in coming up with Lojbanizations
of their names that reflect the way they want them pronounced, and not the
way others say them or the way they are spelled in English.  The person who
first suggested that we remake the Loglan words to avoid copyright was
la ki,ym paiz,r. (Kim Pizer), and she most definitely did NOT want people
to use the to-her terse "kim" (she is a southern lady with a noted accent).

Paul Francis O'Sullivan, proud of his Irish heritage, has chosen to Lojbanize 
his name after the ways of the Old Country, or so I understand.  I don't
have it handy, but it is something like la polpron,CIS.

If the community wants to move in the other direction in a concerted way,
we at "Lojban Central" will rsspect it.  Indeed, if given two versions
of names, one based on spelling and one based on pronunciation, I will
probably print them both in the dictionary and "let usage decide" (that
ever-resounding ultimate cop-out that has so-long guided this project - 
but then it is my job to cop-out in favor of usage).

lojbab