Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 23:33:08 -0400
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab>
Message-Id: <199407230333.AA25829@access1.digex.net>
To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject: Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai
Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net, lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Fri Jul 22 23:33:20 1994
X-From-Space-Address: lojbab

ki'a (Confusion!?)
JL> la lojbab cusku di'e
JL> 
JL> > JL> > 7.1)    ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani
JL> > JL> >         you-imperative [low-rank!] enter type-of come-to my house.
JL> > JL> >         Honorable one, enter my unworthy house.
JL> >
JL> > This is translated correctly, though it may seem counterintuitive.
JL> 
JL> Yes, it does. I liked the Japanese system much better.

and

JL> {ga'i} would still express the attitude of the self in the Japanese style,
JL> only that instead of comparing the self to what it marks, it gives the
JL> attitude of the self towards that which is marked, like most other
JL> attitudinals do.

vs.

JL> > In this case, however, Zipf may argue for a reversal of meaning for ga'i,
JL> > since almost all examples of actual usage are of "ga'inai", and a lot mor
JL> > people have reason to be obsequious than blatantly pompous.
JL> 
JL> I don't agree. Let the obsequious ones make the effort. Of course it is
JL> purely subjective, but I have more difficulty in seeing the "high rank" as
JL> "negative".
JL> 
JL> > I await the community's opinion on this, but with the dcitionary work rus
JL> > headlong, but people who might want a change should speak up early.
JL> 
JL> My opinion: Do not change the dictionary, change the explanation in the
JL> grammar back to what it was before.


with conclusion

JL>         mi ga'i na se zdile le nu galfi stidi be fa ko'a ga'i[nai?]
JL> 
JL> 
JL> {ga'inai} there would be extremely confusing. Why was the interpretation
JL> changed from the one Chris quoted, which seems much more sensible?

Some of these quotes seem to favor the 'Japanese' system, which I think would
favor "ga'i" marking to be an indication of rank of the marked.

But the comment on obsequiousness contradicts this, and the statement to
not change the dictionary is merely ambivalent or agreeing with the status quo.

That status quo is and HAS ALWAYS BEEN that which I stated in my message, that
ga'inai would mean self-abnegation or obsequiousness in all contexts, but would
emphasize the contrast by marking that which is relatively more important.
I have no real knowledge of tyhe Japanese system to have designed the Lojban
system to exactly match the model, though I was trying to enable such a match 
if possible.  The interpretation Chris quoted is therefore wrong, unless a
change is made.

It may be possible to make such a change with a relatively minor change to 
the cmavo list wording, but it really doesn't matter (in editing the dictionary
files, I am finding myself making lots of minor clarificational and consistency
wording changes, though nothing yet that really affects meaning, like this 
change would.)

lojbab