Message-Id: <m0qSRDv-000023C@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Mon, 25 Jul 1994 10:39:15 -0400
Reply-To:     Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
In-Reply-To:  <199407221722.AA21777@nfs1.digex.net> from "Chris Bogart" at Jul
              22, 94 10:36:45 am
Content-Length: 1292
Lines: 28

la kris. bogart. cusku di'e

> Actually I changed my mind after reading the revised version.  I think the
> author meant to say that the attitudinal expresses how you feel in rank when
> compared with the modified word -- quite the opposite from the Japanese
> convention.

Just so.  The phrase "after the manner of the Japanese" existed in the
original lojbab version of the paper, but (as you and others have rightly
pointed out) the Japanese convention is quite different.  The phrase
was apparently meant to mean "representing what the Japanese think
important" rather than "mirroring the representation conventions of
Japanese".

I had also previously thought that "ga'i[nai]" was meant to mirror the
Japanese convention of use, but the Tribal Elders declared otherwise, so
I changed the example -- the original version had no example.  Eventually,
I removed the reference to J. altogether.

> Since the attitudinal is relative to the speaker it would never
> (I presume) be correct to say "mi ga'i" or "mi ga'inai" since you can't be
> ranked differently from yourself.  Again quite different from Japanese.

I think this is a valid corollary of the current rules.

--
John Cowan              sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.