From: Logical Language Group Message-Id: <199407251620.AA11239@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 12:20:44 -0400 (ADT) Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net (Logical Language Group) In-Reply-To: <199407242056.AA25932@nfs1.digex.net> from "Jorge Llambias" at Jul 24, 94 04:55:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1753 Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Mon Jul 25 12:20:55 1994 X-From-Space-Address: lojbab la nitcion. pu cusku di'e > > All the > > syntax textbooks I see treat "He seems to be cold" as a raising from "It > > seems that he is cold", and if they buy a semantic deep structure, it will > > be SEEMS(COLD(he)). If we acknowledged raising here, we'd say {lenu mi > > lenku cu simlu} --- since there is no obvious difference between {xy. simlu > > lenu catra .y'y} and {.y'y simlu lenu se catra xy.} Well, um. There is a > > difference, isn't there? Actually, you want "leka" there, since x2 is said to be a property. This probably eliminates the difference, but there may still be a question of what is realis and what is irrealis -- I suspect not, since properties are neutral on this point. la xorxes. cusku di'e > Only one of focus, which could be marked in some other way. I see what you > mean now. I thought you meant things like {xy simlu le catra}, which would > be an example of what I thought was illegal sumti raising. So it is. > You've now convinced me that {simlu} should be like {fasnu}, {cumki}, etc, > but I guess there's little chance of that happening... In a sense it is so, but it's raising out of a property rather than an event. {mi simlu le ka catra} is a variant of {zi'o simlu le ka mi catra}, as it were, which matches Nick's deep structure better. > I was not talking about superfluous object places, though. I was asking > why some places allow both object and event, while other very similar ones > only allow one. I don't think any answer can be given that will cover all cases. Sometimes the significance is different; sometimes the object meaning is an extension of the event meaning; sometimes vice versa. -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.