From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Thu Jul 21 15:34:30 1994 Message-Id: <199407211934.AA12650@nfs1.digex.net> Date: Thu Jul 21 15:34:30 1994 Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: ciska bai tu'a zo bai X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier Status: RO la kris cusku di'e > la xorxes. cu cusku di'e: > >Either be nitpicky or write some Lojban, or both. > > mi gasnu le remei .iku'i na simcabna ki'u lenu mi na djica lenu le mi besna > cu spoja zo'o i mi pu jinvi le du'u la lojban se pilno fi le nu pevsatre le besna i xu le nu pevsatre cu rinka le nu spoja > If I were writing the gismu definitions I would change instances of > "object/event" to just "event", for clarity, and I would argue that that > should not change the meanings at all. If nelci's x2 only allowed an event, > but you stuck "do" in there anyway, e.g. "mi nelci do", then the listener > trying to stretch their brain to think of "do" as an event or property, > would actually end up with the meaning that was probably intended. i.e. I > like "you", the event/abstraction, not some particular event that you > participated in. "mi nelci tu'a do", then, is also correct, but means "I > like something about you". The "object" in "object/event", then, is just a > clue to the semantics of the predicate, not an arbitrary restriction on the > use of the place. That makes a lot of sense. I agree that arbitrary restrictions are not a good idea, but sometimes it's difficult to tell when the semantics is changing and when it isn't, in going from events to objects. > The same can be said, but far less usefully, of the x1 place of bapli. "mi > bapli lenu broda" could mean that my mere existence forces something to > happen, and maybe someone would want to say that, but the meaning isn't what > you'd expect in a malglico word-for-word translation. The danger of > mistranslation there is a good reason not to list "object" as a possibility > for the x1 place. An object is legal there but should only be used by > trained professionals wearing certified safety equipment :-) Again complete agreement. (Although, "my mere existence" is an event, and there's no reason not to say that when you mean that: {le nu mi zasti}. But I will agree that if you are forced to interpret {mi} as an event, {le nu mi zasti} is the best choice.) > I haven't been through the gismu list in great detail, and it might be that > many of them don't fit my little theory. If the data don't fit a good theory, then surely there's something wrong with the data. :) > Your other example, "spuda", > doesn't seem to fit. If there are lots more of these we'll either have to > change the gismu list or ask la kris. to change his theory :-) Or learn to live with exceptions. I don't think there are many more, I had to look for a while to find {spuda}, but probably there are some others. > 7.1) ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani > you-imperative [low-rank!] enter type-of come-to my house. > Honorable one, enter my unworthy house. > ----------------- > > Something should be reworded here, because the example is not consistent > with Japanese usage; in Japanese you'd attatch the cmavo indicating high > rank to "ko", and a particle meaning low-rank to "zdani" You're right. The mistranslation seems to be from the Loglish to the English, in this case. To get the English expression I suppose it should be ko ga'i nenri klama le mi zdani ga'inai Jorge