Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by nfs1.digex.net with SMTP id AA02292 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 13 Aug 1994 15:07:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199408131907.AA02292@nfs1.digex.net> Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3539; Sat, 13 Aug 94 15:09:14 EDT Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8998; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 15:09:13 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 15:09:13 EDT Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: AllNoun X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Sat Aug 13 15:07:52 1994 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU la lojbab cusku di'e > A Finnish Lojbanist responding to me on Lojban List regarding my version of [...] > VV> Hiiren pyydystanytta kissaa ajava koira on musta > VV> le smacu kavbu mlatu jersi gerku cu xekri [...] > So it IS possible to use sentences like this without running into center- > embedding constraints in at least one natlang. I think we are comparing left-embedding versus right-embedding, I don't think the Finnish sentence is using center-embedding at all. Center-embedding in Lojban would be something like: mi viska le poi jersi le poi kavbu le smacu ku'o mlatu ku'o gerku _I see the chaser of the catcher of the mouse cat dog._ While the same thing is easily understandable with right-embedding: mi viska le gerku poi jersi le mlatu poi kavbu le smacu _I see the dog that chases the cat that catches the mouse._ Left-embedding is almost as bad as center-embedding in this case in Lojban: le poi le poi le smacu cu se kavbu ku'o mlatu cu se jersi ku'o gerku cu se viska mi _The (mouse-catching cat)-chasing dog is seen by me._ but this one is bad only because of the leading {le poi}s, otherwise it would be like in Finnish. (Also, it has a lot more terminators, since Lojban follows the English model for the least-marked case.) The tanru would be a "reduced left-embedding": le smacu kavbu mlatu jersi gerku cu se viska mi The mouse catcher cat chaser dog is seen by me. This has the same word order as the Finnish, but I suppose that in Finnish there is more information in the verbs. Of course, since I don't really know what center embedding is, I could be wrong. I think that the usual center-embedding example is something like: le smacu poi le mlatu poi le gerku cu jersi cu kavbu cu citka Jorge