Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0qZOQa-00004tC; Sat, 13 Aug 94 22:07 EET DST Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5915; Sat, 13 Aug 94 22:06:13 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5913; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 22:06:13 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9301; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 21:05:15 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 15:09:13 EDT Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: AllNoun X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1794 Lines: 49 la lojbab cusku di'e > A Finnish Lojbanist responding to me on Lojban List regarding my version of [...] > VV> Hiiren pyydystanytta kissaa ajava koira on musta > VV> le smacu kavbu mlatu jersi gerku cu xekri [...] > So it IS possible to use sentences like this without running into center- > embedding constraints in at least one natlang. I think we are comparing left-embedding versus right-embedding, I don't think the Finnish sentence is using center-embedding at all. Center-embedding in Lojban would be something like: mi viska le poi jersi le poi kavbu le smacu ku'o mlatu ku'o gerku _I see the chaser of the catcher of the mouse cat dog._ While the same thing is easily understandable with right-embedding: mi viska le gerku poi jersi le mlatu poi kavbu le smacu _I see the dog that chases the cat that catches the mouse._ Left-embedding is almost as bad as center-embedding in this case in Lojban: le poi le poi le smacu cu se kavbu ku'o mlatu cu se jersi ku'o gerku cu se viska mi _The (mouse-catching cat)-chasing dog is seen by me._ but this one is bad only because of the leading {le poi}s, otherwise it would be like in Finnish. (Also, it has a lot more terminators, since Lojban follows the English model for the least-marked case.) The tanru would be a "reduced left-embedding": le smacu kavbu mlatu jersi gerku cu se viska mi The mouse catcher cat chaser dog is seen by me. This has the same word order as the Finnish, but I suppose that in Finnish there is more information in the verbs. Of course, since I don't really know what center embedding is, I could be wrong. I think that the usual center-embedding example is something like: le smacu poi le mlatu poi le gerku cu jersi cu kavbu cu citka Jorge