Message-Id: <m0qZLiJ-00004tC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sat, 13 Aug 1994 12:15:32 EDT
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Allnoun
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2613
Lines: 67

la lojbab cusku di'e

> I >DID< come up with it without writing it down, just looking at the
> English and the cryptic parenthesizing that the guy on conlang who posted it
> started hgenerating, and it just came out of me - (snap) - that fast.

I believe it, but you were looking at the English written down, and probably
were reading from the last noun to the first. What I meant was:

Can you come up in conversation with a 13 component tanru that means what
you want?

Can someone hearing it understand it?

I doubt you can do the first, an I'm almost sure noone can do the second.
(co-tanru are easier, as I said, because you know what you're qualifying
from the start, so very long co-tanru may be understandable.)

(You're right about the left-behind thing.)

> I find it entertaining to do observative mode sometimes, and it does start
> to make some sense.

Are you calling a 13 component tanru observative mode? I would call
observative mode something like:

i cirla
i fetsyselfu pruselcliva
i jubme cpana
i smacu citka
i mlatu kavbu
i gerku jersi
i nanla raplydarxi

which still leaves a lot to the imagination, but is at least understandable
by parts. The long tanru was making reference to a boy only, these observatives
make reference to many actions.

> I agree with you that long tanru are a pain.  UNLESS they are quite
> monatonic in grouping like thsi one was. One trick (if you are translating)
> is to do just like I did and cast all words in the same part of speech.

Same part of speech? Leaving the maid and the table behind for now, consider
the "simple":

        cirla citka smacu kavbu mlatu jersi gerku darxi nanla
        cheese eater mouse catcher cat chaser dog hitter boy

They are not all in the same part of speech. Clearly cheese, mouse, cat, dog
and boy are acting differently than eater, catcher, chaser and hitter.
The tanru relationship for {cirla citka} is {citka be le cirla}, while for
{citka smacu} it is {citka je smacu}, not {smacu be le citka}.

> This one was particularly easy since it used mostly gismu., and very concrete
> tanru components.  My problem is with more metaphorical tanru for abstracts
> like "democracy".

Are you claiming to understand on first reading something like:

mikce speni nanmu purdi tricu mudri bloti litru ctuca seldunda xunre plise

The components are very common and concrete, you probably don't have trouble
with any of them, and the relationships between each pair are very
straightforward, but I don't think that the tanru can be understood in speech.
I could be wrong, of course. Did you get the meaning on first reading?

Jorge