Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0qZE4Z-00004tC; Sat, 13 Aug 94 11:04 EET DST Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4052; Sat, 13 Aug 94 11:02:48 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4050; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 11:02:47 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2462; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 10:01:48 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 04:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Allnoun X-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1824 Lines: 38 JL> Could you come up with that without writing it down? Also, in your phrase JL> it would be the table (or the table top) rather than the cheese that was JL> left --More-- JL> by the maid, unless you want to invoke tanru ambiguity, in which case the JL> whole sentence could mean anything. I >DID< come up with it without writing it down, just looking at the English and the cryptic parenthesizing that the guy on conlang who posted it started hgenerating, and it just came out of me - (snap) - that fast. I then wrote it down to check it. The only really questionable part was the maid-leaving-behind thing. As for that, look agaoin: > fetsyselfu pruselcliva ke jubme cpana ke'e cirla citka smacu kavbu mlatu > jersi gerku raplydarxi nanla > > (female-server past-left-behind) (table upon) cheese eater mouse catcher cat > chaser dog repeatedly-hitter boy lo cpana is something that is >on< the table, not the table itself. This is (stripping the tanru) a selcliva cpana - a left-behind type of thing which is upon something (and this modifies 'cheese'). I find it entertaining to do observative mode sometimes, and it does start to make some sense. I would not be surprised to find some similar methods used in Chinese and other languages that Americans think are 'grammar-free' I know that whne I read glossed Chinese, it looks like observatives to me (which is what got me first into trying to write super tanru. I agree with you that long tanru are a pain. UNLESS they are quite monatonic in grouping like thsi one was. One trick (if you are translating) is to do just like I did and cast all words in the same part of speech. This one was particularly easy since it used mostly gismu., and very concrete tanru components. My problem is with more metaphorical tanru for abstracts like "democracy". lojbab