Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0qpSDR-000024C; Tue, 27 Sep 94 04:24 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3530; Tue, 27 Sep 94 04:24:36 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3526; Tue, 27 Sep 1994 04:24:34 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8511; Tue, 27 Sep 1994 03:21:36 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 19:39:15 -0600 Reply-To: Chris Bogart Sender: Lojban list From: Chris Bogart Subject: Re: any X-To: lojban@cuvmb.bitnet To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1747 Lines: 40 >This gives me an idea. Why not {mi xanto kalte} for the opaque >claim? Similarly {mi tanxe nitcu}. Of course, if someone comes >asking me {do xanto kalte ma}, I wouldn't know what to respond. I thought of this, too, and I started to post the suggestion but I deleted my message because I talked myself out of it, because "mi nitcu xe'e lo tanxe" seems to make some sort of a logical statement, while "mi tanxe nitcu" is vague by definition. But I don't really like "xe'e", and maybe an explicit notion of opacity isn't really necessary for the language to be complete, if you can say what you need to say without using it. There are two problems which jump to mind though: Is it OK to allow the implied transparent "zo'e" to sit there in the x2 place when we're trying to be opaque? Or can the "obvious value" of zo'e happen to be "ne'e"? How do you say "I need two boxes?" I like "mi me re tanxe me'u nitcu" semantically, but its not very zipfy. "mi remei tanxe nitcu" is a little zipfier and vaguer. "mi nitce co me re tanxe" >Of course, if someone comes >asking me {do xanto kalte ma}, I wouldn't know what to respond. I think that's OK, even though opaque and transparent don't occur together in English. mi xanto kalte I'm hunting elephants! .i go'i ma? Which one(s) in particular? .i go'i ne'e None in particular. OR .i go'i la dambos. I'm hunting elephants, specifically Dumbo .i .o'onai do palci Oooh, you're evil! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chris Bogart cbogart@quetzal.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~