Message-Id: <m0qozsV-00001DC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sun, 25 Sep 1994 16:09:18 EDT
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Re; And/Jorge on gismu lexicon
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 3679
Lines: 120

> >>That said, faktoi (facki troci) is a nice synonym for sisku.
>
> Only if we solve the intensional places problem per And's (1). troci and
> sisku relate to in-mind things, while you cannot facki unless the se
> facki is 'real'.

How can I say "I'm looking for my umbrella"?

        mi sisku le mi santa

is not right if the x2 of sisku is a property. So what would it be?

        mi sisku le ka le mi santa cu zvati
        I seek the property of my umbrella is somewhere.

Is that how sisku is supposed to be used?

I could also say:

mi troci le nu mi facki le du'u le mi santa zvati makau
I try to find out where is my umbrella.

or:

mi faktoi le du'u le mi santa zvati makau
I investigate where is my umbrella.

or:

mi zvafaktoi le mi santa
I search for my umbrella.


The lujvo list I have gives {stufa'i} for "to find something" (find
its location). That works for things that have a location, like
cities, but not for umbrellas, for which I think {zvafa'i} is better.


> (Meanwhile it is possible to cilre a falsehood, so it
> also might be intensional/in mind, along with things that are se ctuca)

There's no problem with the du'u places. There may be problems with the
"subject" places:

> You can bring our "any" discussion into these places and raise spectres
> of existence/quantification problems with "I am teaching about
> unicorns", "I am learning (anything/anything I can) about unicorns".

But you can always fill them with {ro lo} or {piro loi}

        mi cilre fi piro loi pavyseljirna
        I learn about the whole mass of unicorns

The subject is the whole mass. (Or it could be part of the mass, but a
well defined one, e.g. white unicorns.) For this reason, "subject" places
are relatively safe from the opaqueness problem.

> "I dreamt about unicorns",

This one is not a problem with {senva}, which doesn't have a "subject"
place.

It is strange that a {se senva} can be either an event or a fact, though.
Should we say:

        le se senva cu ca'a fasnu
        The dream (the dreamed event) really happens.

or:
        le se senva cu jetnu
        The dream (the dreamed predication) is a true predication.

I think x2 of {senva} should be events, not predications.

> and "I remember seeing a unicorn (our memories
> are not necessarily reality).

For that sentence, there's no problem:

        mi morji le du'u mi viska lo pavyseljirna

Even with:

        mi morji fi lo pavyseljirna
        I remember (something) about a unicorn.

there's no problem. Which unicorn? The one I remember. It at least exists
in my mind. The box of "I need a box" doesn't exist even in my mind, it
is a "representative box", unlike the unicorn that you saw, which is
merely an imaginary one.

> It becomes easy to find places where "da
> poi" quantification is a problem, and in some of these, the possibly
> sumti-raised "da poi" is an abstraction, and eliminating sumti-raising
> might force us to explicit 2nd-order abstractions:
>
> mi cilre ledu'u da zo'u da ka de zo'u de mela .iunikorn.
> I learn something that is a property of some unicorn.
> I learn anything about unicorns.
>
> Yeccch!!!

The only problem with that English sentence that I can see is the "anything".
If you change to "something", then:

        mi cilre da loi pavyseljirna
        I learn something about unicorns.

> >>I'v seen {kurji} used in this sense, but I don't like it.  How do you
> >>take care of an event?
>
> I hope not from me %^)  jundi works for events as well as objects

kurji kuj     ku'i take care of         'care'
x1 takes-care-of/looks after/attends to/provides for/is caretaker
for x2 (object/event/person)

How do you take care of an event?

Jorge