Message-Id: <m0qkhWl-00005XC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Tue, 13 Sep 1994 19:45:14 EDT
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: nuntroci
To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Length: 1520
Lines: 46

la kolin cusku di'e

> This is a much bigger question than 'benji'. All the gismu that involve
> physical or other movement, alienation, change of state, and even perception
> are subject to the same question: it's just that our English sensibilities
> don't notice it in the keywords.
>
> I suggest that in all these cases the gismu refers to a complete (or
> potentially complete) transaction. Strictly then, "I sent it but it did not
> arrive" has to be something like
>
> mi ko'a bejytoi .ijeku'i ko'a na (snada) selbe'i

Yes, that seems to work. I suppose we could also say

        mi ko'a puco'a benji  ijeku'i ko'a na caba'o selbe'i

the idea being that there might still be a chance that it will arrive.


> This is exactly parallel to the (ta'o true) statement
>
> ca la xadjed. po le lamprujeftu mi klatoi la keimbridj .ijeku'i na snada
> (Last Friday I tried to go to Cambridge, but was unsuccessful)

I thought la xadjed was Saturday.  }:)


> In informal speech I have no doubt we will say
>
> mi ko'a do benji .ijeku'i nalsnada
>
> because we can say the equivalent in English, but will probably not say
>
> mi klama la keimbridge .ijeku'i na snada
>
> at least with that meaning, because we would probably not say
>
> "Last Friday, I went to Cambridge, but didn't get there" in English.

But we could say "I was going to Cambridge, but didn't get there".

{mi klama la keimbridj .ijeku'i mi na klama la keimbridj} doesn't
sound very nice. Same with {mi ko'a do benji .ijeku'i do ko'a na te benji}

Jorge