Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0qpHLF-000024C; Mon, 26 Sep 94 16:47 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4297; Mon, 26 Sep 94 16:47:58 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4296; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 16:47:57 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4611; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:45:05 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:13:43 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: general response on needing books X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <199409252039.AA11416@nfs1.digex.net> from "ucleaar" at Sep 25, 94 09:38:55 pm Content-Length: 1206 Lines: 36 la xorxes. cusku di'e > > For example: > > > > mi djuno le du'u lo cukta cu blanu > > I know that there is a book that is blue. > > > > da poi cukta zo'u mi djuno le du'u da blanu > > There is a book such that I know it is blue. > > > > Different claims, both with realis subordinate clauses. > > (In the second one I have to know which book, in the first one I > > may or may not know.) > Are you *sure*? I agree there isn't an irrealis element > (assuming djuno is like 'know' rather than 'believe') > but your two examples (in both Eng. & Loj) seem to me > to mean the same thing. Not at all. Consider Quine's two examples: 1) I know that '(Ex) x is a spy' mi djuno le du'u da -spy I know that there are spies (at least one). 2) (Ex) I know that 'x is a spy' da poi -spy zo'u mi djuno le du'u da -spy There is someone I know to be a spy. ((Ex) is existential quantification, of course.) Both are realis, but there is a fundamental difference: for most of us, Example 1 is true and Example 2 is false. -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.