From: Logical Language Group <lojbab>
Message-Id: <199409261413.AA25089@access2.digex.net>
Subject: Re: general response on needing books
To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:13:43 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net (Logical Language Group)
In-Reply-To: <199409252039.AA11416@nfs1.digex.net> from "ucleaar" at Sep 25, 94 09:38:55 pm
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length:       1143
Status: RO

la xorxes. cusku di'e

> > For example:
> >
> >         mi djuno le du'u lo cukta cu blanu
> >         I know that there is a book that is blue.
> >
> >         da poi cukta zo'u mi djuno le du'u da blanu
> >         There is a book such that I know it is blue.
> >
> > Different claims, both with realis subordinate clauses.
> > (In the second one I have to know which book, in the first one I
> > may or may not know.)

> Are you *sure*? I agree there isn't an irrealis element
> (assuming djuno is like 'know' rather than 'believe')
> but your two examples (in both Eng. & Loj) seem to me
> to mean the same thing.

Not at all.  Consider Quine's two examples:

1)	I know that '(Ex) x is a spy'
	mi djuno le du'u da -spy
	I know that there are spies (at least one).

2)	(Ex) I know that 'x is a spy'
	da poi -spy zo'u mi djuno le du'u da -spy
	There is someone I know to be a spy.

((Ex) is existential quantification, of course.)
Both are realis, but there is a fundamental difference: for most of us,
Example 1 is true and Example 2 is false.

-- 
John Cowan		sharing account <lojbab@access.digex.net> for now
		e'osai ko sarji la lojban.