Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0quMvD-00005XC; Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:45 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6749; Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:46:07 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6746; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:46:07 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1972; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 16:43:10 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 11:44:54 EDT Reply-To: bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: Lojban list From: bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU Subject: velju'o/epistemology X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1792 Lines: 56 faupel@trshp.trs.ntc.nokia.com cuska di'e ....why not solve the problem of not being able to talk about Elves and the such like by inventing a tense that would get us to the (imaginary) location in which they do exist. This has been done using a discursive. Suppose I say: mi prami satre lo pa jirna xirma mi pamsa'e lo pavjirnyxirma I with love stroke/rub that which is truly a unicorn. You say ki'a I then say da'i mi pamsa'e lo pavjirnyxirma The {da'i} means the realm of discourse is hypothetical, I am *supposing* that I am petting that which is truly a unicorn. Alternatively, I could claim that unicorns really, truly exist, under a particular epistemology: mi pamsa'e lo pavjirnyxirma be vedu'o lo ranmi I pet that which is truly a unicorn under epistemology myth. In the Middle ages, people bought and sold narwhale tusks that they thought were unicorn horns: su'o lo selgu'e be fi lo ropno [se gugde] Some of the people of the land of Europe puzu'u for a long interval sometime in the past vecnu lo jirna sold that which is truly a horn be lo pavjirnyxirma be vedu'o lo jitfa of that which is truly a unicorn by epistemology false As far as I can see, the problems regarding the veridicality of {lo pavjirnyxirma} only occur when speaker and listener both agree the unicorn does not exist in the epistemology of the conversation. But in that case, it is bad grammar, as well as false, to use {lo} instead of {le}. Robert J. Chassell bob@grackle.stockbridge.ma.us 25 Rattlesnake Mountain Road bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (413) 298-4725