Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0r28uY-00005YC; Tue, 1 Nov 94 04:25 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2699; Tue, 01 Nov 94 04:25:34 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 2698; Tue, 1 Nov 1994 04:25:33 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8976; Tue, 1 Nov 1994 03:21:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 23:45:00 GMT Reply-To: RRICCI@VAXRMA.INFN.IT Sender: Lojban list From: RRICCI@VAXRMA.INFN.IT Subject: Re: any, opaque, transparent, xe'e... X-To: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@vm.cnuce.cnr.it To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1705 Lines: 33 I was reluctant to intervene in the discussion about "any" which has been monopolizing the mailing list in the last weeks, since I haven't had the possibility to read in due depth all the postings. So my opinion could well be a mere rephrasing of ideas already stated by somebody else or, more probably, simply miss the point. In this case, just ignore this posting. It seems to me that the main difference between "I need a box" (or "Give me a box") and I need any box (or "Give me any box") is simply a subjective or attitudinal one: in other words, I'm not referring to different domains of discourse, nor am I asserting anything about the existence or non-existence of the referent of my statement or request - I could equally well say that I need (or want to be shown) "a unicorn" or "any unicorn", the same "ambiguity" resulting in this case too. I feel that the real peculiarity of using "any" instead of "a" relies on a different attitude towards the thing spoken about: using "any" - in most "non pathological" cases at least - simply conveys the idea that I am explicitly stating my *indifference* (for ideological or practical reasons) on what specific item should be substituted for the thing I'm referring to. So my modest suggestion for rendering this kind of "any" in Lojban is to continue using normal descriptors ("le" or "lo" depending on speaker's intention to be or not to be veridical) together with some sort of attitude cmavo denoting indifference or "suspension of judge" (I don't know whether it's already at hand, or if "xe'e" is intended to mean just this). Does it sound too naive to your sophisticated philosophically-inclined ears? :-) ---Roberto Ricci co'o mi'e rob.