Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rCZs9-00007FC; Tue, 29 Nov 94 23:14 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8271; Tue, 29 Nov 94 23:14:15 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8269; Tue, 29 Nov 1994 23:14:14 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6631; Tue, 29 Nov 1994 22:10:57 +0100 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 19:27:53 +0000 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: more sources of opacity-like phenomena X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1727 Lines: 45 How do "tenses" interact with quantification? I see an obvious solution if they have scope over the bridi they occur in: use xaha & xahanai. (I) I read three books twice There are three books that I read twice: (1a) Mi reroi tcidu ci lo cukta (1b) *?Da poi du ci lo cukta zohu [reroi [mi tcidu da]] (1c) *?Reroi [mi tcidu xaha ci lo cukta] Twice there were three books that I read: [i.e. I might have read up to 6 books] (2a) ???????????? (2b) *?Reroi [da poi du ci lo cukta zohu mi tcidu da] (2c) *?Reroi [mi tcidu xahanai ci lo cukta] (II) I generally read a book There is a book that I generally read: (3a) Mi tahe tcidu lo cukta (3b) *?Da poi cukta zohu [tahe [mi tcidu da]] (3c) *?Tahe [mi tcidu xaha lo cukta] Generally there is a book that I read: [i.e. not necessarily always the same book] (4a) ???????????? (4b) *?Tahe [da poi cukta zohu mi tcidu da] (4c) *?Tahe [mi tcidu xahanai lo cukta] I presume these matters have been solved long ago (though I don't recall them being discussed on the list). What is the solution? Can we also extend xaha and xahanai to cover this function? For that matter, I wonder if pc was thinking of xaha (so-named by Jorge - pc called it "xehe") to serve this function: Pa lo prenu tcidu ro lo cukta "There is someone that reads every book" Pa lo prenu tcidu xaha ro lo cukta "For every book there is someone that reads it" to which we can add: Pa lo prenu tcidu xahanai ro lo cukta "There is someone that reads every book" Would this extension of xaha undermine its use as a marker for transparent reference in opaque contexts? ------ And