Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0r8doI-00005XC; Sat, 19 Nov 94 02:37 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3761; Sat, 19 Nov 94 02:37:59 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3758; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 02:37:58 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5102; Sat, 19 Nov 1994 01:34:02 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 19:42:31 +0000 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: Re: small universe consequences X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 18 Nov 94 09:55:34 EST.) <9411181455.AA00783@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Length: 1623 Lines: 33 Bob: > I'm still unable to see what you mean. Your Lojban example means > "one of the three cats is grey" (roughly). What difference does it > make whether this is true or false? Okay it may make a difference to > you if you bet $1000000 that one of the three cats is grey, but I don't > see how we have 2 different meanings according to whether there is > or isn't a grey cat. > > We are using very different sense of the word `meaning'. > The key point is that it does "make a difference to you if you bet > $1000000 that one of the three cats is grey,...". Suppose we're writing our grammar of Lojban. What meaning does the grammar give to "Lo mlatu cu xekri"? Part of the story is "Ex: mlatu(x) & xekri(x)", & the rest is the definition of what it takes to be a mlatu or to be a xekri. Now I ask you: Where in the grammar do we have to discuss whether you've bet $1000000 that there is a black cat? - I see of course that the existence of a black cat "means" a lot to you, and since the truth of the proposition "lo mlatu cu xekri" is contingent on whether there is a black cat, I of course see that the truth of the proposition "means" a lot to you. But this sort of "meaning" is a matter of your gambling activities rather than of Lojban grammar: the truth of the proposition means a lot to you because of the $1000000 bet, not because of anything the grammar says. It is the grammar that says LO is nonspecific and LE is +specific, and since the truth of utterances and the size of your bets are beyond the purview of the grammar, they have nothing to do with the specificity of LO/LE. ---- And