Message-Id: <m0r4cFb-00005bC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:14:15 EST
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: any
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 1446
Lines: 37

> And asks for "Any two people can sit on this couch" (I assume "at the
> same time") without using something like _xe'e_.  But this is an easy
> context-leaper case, the home ground of that concept: "for any x and y
> different from one another and both people, it can be the case that both
> sit on this counch at the same time." The universal just has to get
> outside the scope of the "can," which is hard to show in English.

Probably every opaque statement can be dealt with like this. The question
is, can we say things like that in Lojban without having to use prenexes
and abstractions?

I agree that one could say:

        ro da poi prenu ro de poi prenu ro di zo'u kakne le nu
        ca di da e de zutse le sfofa
        For every person x, every person y, every z, it is
        possible that at time of z, x and y sit on the sofa.


But who wants to talk like that? And can't we say it using the word {re},
what if it was 12 people that can sit at the table, do we need to use
12 variables? Isn't there a more direct way to say it?

I like:

        ro da zu'o re lo'e prenu cu kakne le nu zutse le sfofa ca da
        For each z, two 'typical' people can sit on the sofa at time of z

This is still heavy because of the "same time" thing, but if that is
understood, then

        re lo'e prenu cu kakne le nu zutse le sfofa
        Two 'typical' people can sit on the sofa.

Of course, {xe'e} would also work in this case.

Jorge