Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rCyME-00007FC; Thu, 1 Dec 94 01:22 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8449; Thu, 01 Dec 94 01:22:55 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8444; Thu, 1 Dec 1994 01:22:54 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4497; Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:19:30 +0100 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 17:43:29 EST Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: more sources of opacity-like phenomena X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1746 Lines: 48 > How do "tenses" interact with quantification? You do like to ask difficult questions, don't you? I don't think we have a fully worked out answer for this one. John Cowan ruled that {ba} behaved as a singular term, which in practice means that it commutes with everything. But I'm not sure that this is the best rule for all tenses, especially the "roi"s. > I see an obvious solution if they have scope over the bridi > they occur in: use xaha & xahanai. If they are attached directly to the selbri, then they have to have bridi scope, anything else would be very strange. The question is whether the two times of {reroi} are viewed as a mass of two times, or each time separately, which seems to make more sense. In the latter case, the tense doesn't commute with everything, and we need to know how it interacts with negation (ie which one has wider scope, since both have bridi scope). mi reroi tcidu ci lo cukta does allow I think that there be up to 6 books that I read in all. The reroi has wider scope than the ci lo cukta, and so it is like {le re prenu cu tcidu ci lo cukta}, for each of two people there are three books that each reads. To get the same three books the two times, you can separate the {reroi} from the selbri and put it after the {ci lo cukta} mi tcidu ci lo cukta reroi which goes to prenex form as: da poi du ci lo cukta reroiku zo'u mi tcidu da which is similar to what happens with {ci lo cukta cu se tcidu le re prenu}, there are three books such that each of the two people read them. > I presume these matters have been solved long ago (though > I don't recall them being discussed on the list). You may be presuming too much. Let's first hear from the real experts. Jorge