Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rBjRi-00007EC; Sun, 27 Nov 94 15:15 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0369; Sun, 27 Nov 94 15:15:25 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0366; Sun, 27 Nov 1994 14:41:56 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3962; Sun, 27 Nov 1994 13:22:34 +0100 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 12:23:40 +0000 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: Re: solutions to sumti opacity X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 23 Nov 94 12:30:48 EST.) Content-Length: 1087 Lines: 26 John: > > If I think I see Lojbab, or a certain cat, there is a problem. I > > don't think we can say: > > "mi sizviska fi lo siho la lojbab" > > "mi sizviska fi lo siho le mlatu" > > and using "lo siho me la lojbab", "lo siho me le mlatu" is too vague. > > > > So I would suggest: > > "mi sizviska fi lu la lojbab lihu" > > "mi sizviska fi lu le mlatu lihu" > > and hope we will allow quotation to represent thought as well as speech. > > Without prejudice to the rest of And's message, this bit is not necessary. > "lo si'o du la lojbab", "the idea of being identical to Lojbab", does what > he wants, I believe. Counterintuitive though it is, I do see that this entirely solves the syntactic problem. But in "lo siho du la lojbab" and "le siho du le nanmu", the "la lojbab" is "what the speaker calls Lojbab", and the referent of "le nanmu" is in-mind of the speaker. I would like to be able to find a way to change this from 'speaker' to 'the person thinking the thought'. In the absence of any other solution, "mi sizviska fi lu le/la xxx lihu" is still required. ---- And