Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rA9Rr-00007CC; Wed, 23 Nov 94 06:36 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7000; Wed, 23 Nov 94 06:37:05 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6998; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 06:37:02 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4667; Wed, 23 Nov 1994 05:33:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:58:10 EST Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: solutions to sumti opacity X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1224 Lines: 37 la and cusku di'e > SUMMARY > (1) viska & other perception gismu often don't mean what we want them > to. The solution is to use lujvo with a new siho-type place for the > mental representation of the percept. I think we could use the opaque markers for this too. ko'a viska lo'e gerku doesn't claim that there is a dog with the property of being seen by Koha, it only makes a claim about Koha's perception, so I think it's ok to use it when the perception doesn't match the stimulus. > (2) the x2 of djica, nitcu, troci & other intentional gismu should be > of siho-type. I don't like that at all. I prefer to be able to want and need objects rather than ideas. (And I like being able to say "this is needed", "this is wanted", without circumlocutions.) > (3) a siho-type sumti can alternate with lu..lihu. "lo siho" involves > the speaker's description of x1's thoughts, while "lu...lihu" is a > "verbatim" representation of the x1's thoughts, or is a representation > of how the x1 might have described x1's thoughts. Just use {la'e} in front of {lu} and it works for me: do djica la'e lu mi ponse le cukta li'u Otherwise, what you want is the sentence "mi ponse le cukta". > ---- > And Jorge