Message-Id: <m0rGYbe-00007DC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sat, 10 Dec 1994 15:44:47 EST
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: plural
To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Length: 2289
Lines: 57

la lojbab spusku di'e mi

> >I don't see how can you avoid using one or the other. For a given
> >broda, {le broda} refers to individual broda while {lei broda} refers
> >to a group/mass of them. You could use {lei broda} for a single broda,
> >but if there are more than one you have to be explicit whether you are
> >referring to them individually or as a group.
>
> Why do you say this? "le" descrioptions mean what the speakers wants them
> to mean, provided they are understood.

Yes, the referent is what the speaker has in mind, but the way they are
distributed depends on whether you use {le} or {lei}.

You could use {le broda} to refer to a mass of five broda, but then if
you had to make the quantifier explicit that would be {le pa broda}
= "the one thing that I'm designating as broda (and which happens to
actually be a mass of five broda)".

Doing that would be within the non-veridicality of {le}, but it would
be extremely misleading.

> "le nanmu" can refer to 3 men treated
> as a single mass, if the speaker wants to - to be explicit without allowing
> them to be separated, you could say le nanmu poi cimei. (or appropriate other
> place of cimei).

Ok, but it would be {le pa nanmu poi cimei}. It is possible, but extremely
misleading.

One thing is to designate something that is not quite a broda but is very
similar to one as {le broda}. A very different thing is to designate something
that is a group of broda (taken as a unit) as {le broda}, especially since
the obvious way would be to say {lei broda}.

Suppose that there are five people in front of us, and I say:

        ro le prenu cu citka lo plise

This I will understand to mean "Each of the (5) people eats an apple."

But you are saying that it could also mean that the mass of five people,
which I'm calling {le prenu}, eats an apple.

It could, but it makes very little sense.

> And in any case, the defualt inner quantifier is "su'opa" which says nothing
> about singularity or plurality.

I know. That's why I said the distinction between individual and group
is not the same distinction English makes between singular and plural.

If you use {le broda}, the referent is normally an individual broda for
each event. If you use {lei broda} the referent is a group of broda for
each event.

Jorge