Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rElBd-00007GC; Mon, 5 Dec 94 23:43 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0183; Mon, 05 Dec 94 23:43:23 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0182; Mon, 5 Dec 1994 23:43:21 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2954; Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:39:59 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: solutions to sumti opacity Cc: Lojban List To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <199411291358.AA24487@access1.digex.net> from "Logical Language Group" at Nov 29, 94 08:58:18 am Content-Length: 1084 Lines: 26 la .and. cusku di'e > > Suppose I want to describe things from your point of view and say > > "you were going to a shop, but when you got there you found it had > > never existed". I can't translate this by "do klama lo zarci". la lojbab. cusku di'e > It is indeed, unless you want to eliminate the future tense. Since we are > not omniscient, especially about the future, any statement asbout the future > is either "subjective" or "intentional". The narrator may not know what is > going to happen either, especially in serials where the sequel has not yet been > written %^). I think And is correct here, and lojbab is wrong. Statements with "ba" are predictions; "do ba klama lo zarci" means "there is (timelessly) a store such that you will go to it (in my future)". If you don't go to a store, I was simply wrong. If I want to say "You are going to a store" irrealis, I need "sisku" and some kind of abstraction, either full-scale "ka" or "tu'a". -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.