Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rEiNt-00007GC; Mon, 5 Dec 94 20:43 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7007; Mon, 05 Dec 94 20:43:49 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7004; Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:43:49 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3184; Mon, 5 Dec 1994 19:40:32 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:38:15 -0500 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Cowan's summary: opacity and sumti-raising X-To: Lojban List To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <199411190336.AA01269@nfs2.digex.net> from "Jorge Llambias" at Nov 18, 94 07:34:08 pm Content-Length: 1185 Lines: 29 la xorxes. joi mi cusku be di'e casnu > > > I could understand this if it never made sense to have an object > > > being looked for, but it does make sense, so I don't see the need > > > to forbid this simple expression. > > > > Quantifier error! > > > > It is false that "it never makes sense", right enough. However, it is > > also false that "it does [always] make sense". > > When does it not make sense? > > A different matter is whether the opaque case can be easily expressed, > but the transparent case always makes sense with sisku meaning "x1 looks > for object x2". "Make sense" not in the sense of having an established meaning, but rather in the sense of meaning what you (intuitively) would like it to mean. We agree that "mi sisku lo broda" means "there exists a broda that I am looking for", which is not at all the sense of "I'm looking for a thingummy", which is "mi sisku le ka broda". The point of debate is whether to tolerate "mi sisku le mi broda", where the object of search is +specific, as a valid extension of the meaning of "sisku". -- John Cowan sharing account for now e'osai ko sarji la lojban.