Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rFXHK-00006wC; Thu, 8 Dec 94 03:04 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3657; Thu, 08 Dec 94 03:04:27 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3653; Thu, 8 Dec 1994 03:04:26 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4351; Thu, 8 Dec 1994 02:01:07 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 19:58:07 EST Reply-To: bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU Sender: Lojban list From: bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: habitual/typical X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <199412080016.TAA06807@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu> (message from Jorge Llambias on Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:15:13 EST) Content-Length: 1652 Lines: 45 > {na'o} Typically - standard measured or understood by, i.e., referent > tends to be the experience of other entities > similar to the entity concerned. > > lo mlatu na'o kalte loi smacu > A/The cat typically hunts mice. I assume that "the entity concerned" refers both to ... the cat and the mice ... Good point! It turns out that John Cowan's mechanism of Imaginary Journeys will help. * For {na'o}, you travel to and observe instances of hunting/being hunted in which other sumti are involved * For {ta'e}, you travel to and observe past time instances in which the same sumti are involved. Let's try this using Verb-Subject-Object sequence, as a heuristic to unsettle us. This makes it easier to see "the entity concerned" as being the whole bridi, i.e., the ecological relationship among hunting, cats, and mice. > na'o kalte fa lo mlatu loi smacu Hunting is a typical relationship between cats (x1 or hunter) and mice (x2 or prey). We look at other cats and other mice and other instances of hunting. This works, but you do have to look at the whole bridi. Now, let's try `habitually' in that utterance: > ta'e kalte fa lo mlatu loi smacu Here we have to look at the hunting and at the cat and its previous experience and at the mouse and its previous experience (or the plurals of these, or the `Mr. Mouse' entity). This works, too. Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu 25 Rattlesnake Mountain Road bob@grackle.stockbridge.ma.us Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (413) 298-4725