Return-Path: <@FINHUTC.HUT.FI:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from FINHUTC.hut.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rGt6t-00007DC; Sun, 11 Dec 94 20:35 EET Message-Id: Received: from FINHUTC.HUT.FI by FINHUTC.hut.fi (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7564; Sun, 11 Dec 94 20:35:16 EET Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin MAILER@SEARN) by FINHUTC.HUT.FI (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7563; Sun, 11 Dec 1994 20:35:15 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5139; Sun, 11 Dec 1994 19:31:49 +0100 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 13:49:48 +0000 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: Re: jei X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 11 Dec 94 03:39:28 EST.) Content-Length: 1841 Lines: 35 Lojbab: > >> But mi djuno fi lejei broda DOES mean "I know whether broda" more or less. > >> It means I know something about the truth value of the predication broda, > >> which to me means "I know whether broda". > > > >"I know whether broda" is "I know what the truth value of broda is [i.e. > >0, 1 or maybe some value in between]". You can know something about > >thr truth value without knowing whether it is 0 or 1: e.g. you may > >know that I'm trying to discover what the truth value of broda is, > >so you therefore know something about the truth value of broda. > Yes, but ellipsis presumes cooperastive listener and speaker. I would > undoubtedly phrase the sentece differently to say something like that > (or have context that clearly indicates it). I guess I could also make > it clear with lekau jei broda , which to me seems more obvious than ledu'u > xukau - which seems very malglico for some reason to me (or malrarna) when > jei is explicitly available. xu just too strongly asks a question to me, > even if metalinguistically marked. Similarly "Mi djuno fi le mamta be do" could, presuming cooperating interlocuotrs, mean "I know who is your mother". But that is a rather vague way of going about it. Much less vague is "Mi djuno fi/fe? lo duhu makau mamta do". Similarly, "xukau" is less vague than "jei". "Jei" is really an unwarranted shorthand for "x1 [a number] is truth value [jitfa zei jetnu] fe lo duhu broda". In this case, "I know something about thetruth value of broda" would be "Mi djuno fi lo jifyjetnu be lo duhu broda", while "I know whether broda" could be rendered "Mi djuno fi?/fe? lo duhu makau jifyjetnu be lo duhu broda". This is a bit of a mouthful, but I'd rather see a gadri version of "makau" used to abbreviate this, as in "Mi djuno fe/fi [makau [jifyjetnu be lo duhu broda]]". ---- And