Message-Id: <m0rGx65-00007DC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sun, 11 Dec 1994 23:50:05 MET
Reply-To:     Goran Topic <topic@MATH.HR>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Goran Topic <topic@MATH.HR>
Subject:      Re: reply: (1) veridicality
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 3655
Lines: 69

> > If you and I were both fluent in, say, Croatian, would we have a
> > tendency to use typical English figures of speech when talking to
> > each other in Croatian, but maybe avoid them when talking with Goran
> > (even though he'd probably understand)? Are the range of figures of
> > speech more tied to the culture or to the language? I'm not fluent
> > enough in any other language to know.

???
I thought you were from Argentine?
Or did I mix someting up again?

> I haven't come across research on that. It must be tough to try to
> disentangle language & culture.

Since I am used as an example here, I'll dump in my tuppence...

I observe the reverse situation: how I communicate in English.
There is many phrases that have entered Croatian from English and
become like our own. But the reverse is not the case - we have many
expressions that do not exist in English, and also, there are many
other expressions in English that are not taken by Croats. For example,
I tend to use an expression that loosely translates to 'What can one do?'
(or 'What do you want?') which indicates general feeling of resignation.
I DO NOT use the expression when speaking English, REGARDLESS of who I am
speaking to. But, pe'i that comes from knowing English good enough to be
able to use ITS phrases - that, I believe is the meaning of 'fluency':
to be able to THINK in a foreign language. For as long one has to think
in hier* own language and translate his already verbalised thoughts,
I think one would use hier* native language phrases.

(*) Hee is 'he or she', hier is 'him or her'... :)

There is one other thing I've noticed. Several of my friends also have
the same command of the English as me. When we're together, we sometimes
slip into English when verbalisation of a thought comes in that form
before we can find an adequate expression in Croatian. So, it could sound
like this (curly braces=English, normal text=Croatian):

I like it. My {significant other} will be happy.

There is no adequate translation for the phrase {SO}. We have {husband},
{wife}, {girlfriend}, {boyfriend}, {the one I like/am attracted to very
much} (I don't know the english word for it - the word itself is "simpatija"
which is really {sympathy}, but It doesn't translate to ENGLISH), but
we do not have a phrase that presumes neither the sex nor the possible
marital relationship of the person in question. We CAN use the literal
translation, but, although the phrase is well made and can even be well
translated into Croatian, WE DO NOT HAVE IT IN OUR LANGUAGE. My friends
would very well know what I was referring to if I translated the phrase,
but would presume that I was being funny. It sounds SO WEIRD, that we are
much more comfortable inserting pieces of foreign language, which by
itself doesn't sound very nice in our language due to completely different
phonetic and morphological systems, and is usually avoided - everything
needs to become gramatically adapted to our pretty rigid case system, which
we usually do not do when we insert English clips in our conversation. The
phrases and/or words tend to look a bit like Chinese adaptations, I think;
maybe not so severe. (BTW, Chinese translates Croatia as ke4luo2di4ya4.
Imagine what would a Chinese think when I said 'Croatia' to him, unmodified,
in the middle of a Chinese sentence? Or, even worse, 'Hrvatska'? THAT
ugly. :))

So, I believe phrases are tied to language, although they are
result and part of the culture.

co'o mi'e. goran.

--
Learn languages! The more langs you know, the more incomprehensible you can get
e'udoCILreleiBANgu.izo'ozo'onairoBANguteDJUnobedocubanRI'a.ailekadonaka'eSELjmi