Message-Id: <m0rEaEk-00007rC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sun, 4 Dec 1994 01:34:54 MET
Reply-To:     Goran Topic <topic@MATH.HR>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         Goran Topic <topic@MATH.HR>
Subject:      Re: cmavo hit list - lojbab responds
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 3647
Lines: 68

> >        ce'a lau tau zai
> >        ga'e ge'o je'o jo'o lo'a na'a ru'o se'e to'a (character shifts)
> >
> >Since letterals are really pro-sumti and not letters, these shifts
> >only augment the number of available pro-sumti, which is already
> >pretty big. If I want to quote a fragment of, say, Greek writing,
> >I have to do it with zoi gy .... gy, and the shifts are of no use.
> >These could be used in mathematics, where Greek letters are very
> >much used as symbols, but I don't intend to use Lojban for mathematics.
>
> alpha particles, gamma rays, "I am the alpha and the omega" - these
> things tend to crop up in non-mathematical language on occasion.
> Since much Lojban discussion seems to be about Lojban, I wouldn't doubt that
> long-run won't see IPA shift, or an ASCII character set shift being much used.
> Still, I have to admit that word.bu has reduced the need for these by an
> order of magnitude.

Umm... {lo kantrgama} (or {gusnentceka'u} or {gu'ibacybacka'u} for purists
that don't like le'avla) is a concept in itself. Gamma letter has
nothing to do with gamma rays except as symbol. Symbol in language
we can replace with another symbol, from another language (hence,
{lo gusnentceka'u}), and symbol in equations is a convention - and we
can as easily say {gama.bu.} Same reasoning with alpha particles.
Maybe {ratnrxeli velnarge}. Dunno. Should put in some thought.
As for "I am the alpha and omega", you don't actually write the
greek letters in the text, do you? It is symbolism again. I don't know.
It could be {mi cfari je fanmo roda}, if you are after the meaning
itself. If you want literal and exact translation, you could use
{.alfas.bu. .e .omegas.bu.} (but that is not ambiguous, I believe they
wouldn't be taken for symbols, but KOhA variables, right?). And if I
want to take symbolism and make it real for lojbanists, rather than
greeks, I could use something along the lines of {zo tu'e .e zo tu'u}...
if I knew how to handle the "I am" part. How do you say if without
claiming that you are the word {tu'e}, or the letter alpha? How DO
you handle symbolism in lojban?

> Subscripts are possible in the current language.  We assigned 5 because
> JCB had 5. We then realized it was easy to need more than 5. Again, look
> to The Open Window.  Now we have re-realized, as JCB did, that lerfu as
> anaphora may be more suitable.  But the 10 assigned members of ko'a are
> still valuable in a language that has no gender or number on pronouns.
> I think longer texts will tend to use these a lot, especially if, as may
> happen, the lerfu words turn out to have insufficient sound contrast for
> easy and accurate recognition in a rapid speech stream.  They didn't
> invent alfa/bravo/charlie for nothing in English, and Lojban has the
> problem that led to this even worse, while having more places than in
> English where lerfu are nominally useful.

A question about sumti valsi and velski... if you have an expression
like {le la goran. za'o melbi cidju}, what is its first letter?
Is this gy., zy., my. or cy.? I'd say the last one, cy., but I'm
not sure.

Second, if you have {le tavla be la goran.}, what is {ri}? Is it
{le tavla be la goran.} or just {la goran.}? I believe the rule is
the last completed sumti. They both finish off at the same time.
Or does the former finish later than latter? It is {le tavla be
la goran. ku be'o ku}... Just some food for thought...

There was one more, but I forgot...

> lojbab

co'o mi'e. goran.

--
Learn languages! The more langs you know, the more incomprehensible you can get
e'udoCILreleiBANgu.izo'ozo'onairoBANguteDJUnobedocubanRI'a.ailekadonaka'eSELjmi