From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Sun Jan 15 20:02:38 1995 Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by nfs2.digex.net with SMTP id AA19930 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 15 Jan 1995 20:02:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199501160102.AA19930@nfs2.digex.net> Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8028; Sun, 15 Jan 95 20:03:49 EST Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5910; Sun, 15 Jan 1995 20:03:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 01:59:42 MET Reply-To: Goran Topic Sender: Lojban list From: Goran Topic Subject: Re: ago (LONG and la'a incorrect :)) To: Lojban Listserv Status: RO > coi rodo .ui coi doi xorxes. > mi xruti i mi facki le du'u ji'imuno selmri cu denpa le nu mi tcidu .i .ie .i lojbo liste selmri tolcafne ca'o le slatei > i pamai mi dunda lei mi re fepni sera'a le du'u tai makau jarno > le kambra be le'e selku'e .i ri'ada'i lonu lonu mi tcedjica lenu la lojban. klunu'i cu fanza do ku ko cusku fi mi .i lu da dunda lei da re fepni sera'a de li'u ba'e je'a tcegliklu > Djer: > > On the wordiness question, dare I mention yet another experimental > > cmavo? Would a word for "ago" really rent the fabric of lojban? > > And: > > Yes, it would. "Ago" means "before now", as, I think, does "ba" when > > it has no overt complement. So "ago" = intransitive ba. > > > > Sorry. For "ba", read "pu". > > I don't think a new word is needed, but "pu" doesn't really help. > "Ago" means "before now" but it always comes after a measure of > time, so it means more than "puku", which cannot be complemented with > a time length. > > "X ago" means "a length of time X before now". I think that the most > natural way to do this in Lojban is with "za", which is precisely that: > a length of time. > > Consider: > > mi pu za ze'a tcidu > I read. > > To make the interval of reading more specific, we say: > > mi pu za tcidu ze'a le cacra > I read . > > Similarly, I think that the way to make the offset more specific is: > > mi pu ze'a tcidu za le cacra > I read . > > We can also add a starting point different from "now": > > mi tcidu pu le nu do klama kei za le cacra ze'a le cacra > I read for an hour, one hour before you came. > > So, in my opinion, there is already a word for "ago" in Lojban > (actually three words: zi, za and zu) but instead of coming after > the time length like in English, it comes before it. (Also, it can > be used for the future equivalent of "ago", which in English doesn't > have a single word: "from now".) > > I think that the tense paper says that "za " means "a while > before/after ", but I don't think that is very useful, and > a way of clearly specifying the length of the offset is necessary. > > The exact same thing happens with spatial tenses. Yes. But I don't think the present is not useful. Especially the spatial equivalent, VI series. Don't tell me you claim never to need something like {ko'a kelci va le ckule}? There is much less meddling and change and trouble if we would just introduce new sumti tcita, instead of changing the existing ones. I mean, something like new cmavo, say, {xe'i} (after temci - te'i is not allocated, if I didn't miss anything). I don't remember {xe'i} experimental cmavo being in use, too. mi tcidu pu lenu do klama kei xe'i lo cacra kei ze'a lo cacra I read you come, [1] hour, [1] hour. I read one hour before you came, for one hour. Spatial would be a bit more wordy, because it would (at least with me) need {fe'e}, since it would be good to keep spatial and temporal tenses apart... Much less ambiguity possibilities. lo verba cu kelci zu'a xe'i fe'e lo mitre be li ci Child plays 3 metres. Child plays 3 metres to my left. Or you could say that it encompasses both spatial and temporal distance (in which case {fe'e} is not needed), and measures that which precedes it (saves two syllables in spatial expressions): carvi pu xe'i lo djedi be li ci be'a la mai,emis. xe'i le minli be li panono Rain, 3-day Miami 100-mile Three days ago, it was raining 100 miles north from Miami. Then you could also say, for example, mi pu te vecnu ti xe'i lo cacra ku joi lo minli be li re I buy this hour and 2-mile I bought this an hour ago and two miles away. Enough raving. Tell me what you think. Or to shut up. :) ta'o is there a gismu for distance, like equivalent for {temci}, or is it necessarily {nilda'o} or {da bi'i de mitre di}-like expressions? > Iain: > > How _do_ we say "The window is three metres to the left of the door"? > > I would say: > > le canko cu zvati zu'a le vorme va lei ci mitre > > (If you don't like {lei ci mitre}, then {le mitre be li ci} or > {li ci poi mitre ke'a} are equally usable.) See above. > Djer: > > I predict that the problem will not go away. I think it is unrealistic > > to have awkward and prolix expressions for frequently used concepts. As > > you know, the reason some expressions are short is their high > > frequency. > > I agree. And I haven't seen any way of expressing "ago" other than using > "temci" as the main selbri, but that seems a bit too drastic. It's not > just a matter of conciseness, there should be a clear way of specifying > offset lengths. Yes. > If you order the lojbo squad to march towards the right, they might do > so without first facing right, no? So first you have to order them to > face right. My attempt is {le pritu [be do] ko crane}, but the doubt is, > when is {le pritu} evaluated? Does this mean "make it such that you are > facing towards what is now your left", or "make it such that you will > be facing what will be then your left"? Umm. Make that 'right'. Ugh. Tough. By the formulation of all explanations of {ko}, it appears that the latter is a bit more convincing, if not useful, IF we accept the PRESENT TENSE for {pritu}. But, maybe the question is wrong - not when is it evaluated, but what tense context do we assume for {le pritu be do}. I still believe that each bridi has all the tenses, although ellipsised (what IS the current consensus on this, anyway? Is there one?), so what is stopping us to think of the sentence as le pritu [be do bei pu zi dei] ko crane left of-you this-utterance of-you-imperative be-front Face that which was your left immediately before this utterance happened. (assuming I got the dei-as-event thing right :))? > Jorge co'o mi'e. goran. poi ko na .e'oga'inai catra vau zo'o -- Learn languages! The more langs you know, the more incomprehensible you can get e'udoCILreleiBANgu.izo'ozo'onairoBANguteDJUnobedocubanRI'a.ailekadonaka'eSELjmi