From lojbab Wed Jan 25 05:55:40 1995 Received: from access4.digex.net by nfs1.digex.net with SMTP id AA03955 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 Jan 1995 05:55:37 -0500 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA11853 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for lojbab); Wed, 25 Jan 1995 05:55:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 05:55:35 -0500 From: Logical Language Group Message-Id: <199501251055.AA11853@access4.digex.net> To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Subject: Re: ki le ckule Cc: lojbab@access.digex.net, lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu Status: RO >> I think that "vi" has been used colloquially to mean "within a short radius >> of" where the radius is close enough to mean "At". > >"Within a short radius of" is not the same as "at". I agree that {vi} is used >(as tcita) almost exclusively to mean "at", which is contrary to what the >Imaginary Journeys paper proposes. I think we are differing on English semantics here. Whenever an object is solid, for example, we understand "At" to mean "within a short radius" e.g. I am standing at the chair. For containers, "at" does not mean "in". "Put that at the box" rather than "put that 'in' the box" will leave us a bit muddled ass to exactly how close to put it. "Put the dishes at the table" means "on the table" usually. But "on" something is still at a non-zero radius. As to where you were born - well it probably wasn't "ne'i" Argentina - that brings to mind a cave under the surface, though it may be cultural bias. If I wanted to ssay you were born in Argentina, I would use "vi", if in a neighboring country excluding Argentina, I would use "va". "vi" includes anything that can be called "here at", "va" excludes "here" and includes anywhere subjectively "near" but not close enough to be "at". I think for large things like countries, "here" encompasses so much that it ends at the edges, per normal cognition. Since "vi" and "va" are more or less tied to speaker listener distances, and our cognition is based on communication between people in each other's physical presence, vi approaches excluding "near" when the size of "in" exceeds thhe normal speaker listener distance - probably about room-sized. lojbab