Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 20:20:24 +0000
From: ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: replies re. ka
In-reply-to: (Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 95 20:07:28 EST.)
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Reply-to: ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Message-id: <01HMIC8YTIW2001SB7@FIPORT.FUNET.FI>
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Jorge:
> >   Ex, she knows that x is the identity of the set of the colours of the
> >     house.
> (1)     ko'a djuno le du'u le zdani cu skari makau
> (2)     da zo'u ko'a djuno le du'u da ka du lo'i se skari be le zdani
> If the house is blue, then (1) tells me that she knows that the house is
> blue, while (2) tells me that she knows what is the identity of the set
> {blue}. Are those two equivalent?

Yes. (1) wd mean she knows blue is the colour of the house, & (2) wd
mean she knows {blue} is the set of colours of the house. (Maybe
{da zohu koha djuno le duhu da du lohi se skari be le zdani} is
sufficient.)

> > > How would you say {ko'a cusku le sedu'u xokau prenu ba klama} = "She
> > > said how many people are coming."
> >   Ex, she said that x is the cardinality of the set of people that are
> >    coming.
> Right, but then you have to speak of cardinalities and sets. Do you
> suggest that as a colloquial form?

I would, actually. But at any rate I think it's valuable to establish
whether makau is an easy way to say what could be said without makau,
using only the already existing means, or whether it increases the
expressive power of the lg. I feel it doesn't increase expressive
power: it is an optional add-on, a useful convenience.

> What is "cardinality" in Lojban?

I don't know. That's a side issue. Whether or not the necessary
cmavo or whatever exist is of secondary concern to me.

> Does {ko'a ko'e frica le ka ke'a skari *red*} mean that one of them is
> red and the other isn't, or that they are each of a different type of
> redness? To me, it's the latter.

The former makes life easier. But you want it to be the latter: so be
it. I give up trying to get my head round makau in this context. (I
understand it enough to use it, but not to understand how it works
(other than by magic).)

Incidentally, how about

  koha kohe frica le se skari

which wd save a lot of tears.

> > That all seems well and good. I merely wonder whether there is a rule
> > that says the ZI specifies the displacement of the most recent PU.
> Is it always unambiguous which PU any ZI specifies the displacement of?
> i na ka'e se senpi va'o le nu zo pu joi zo zi tagji jorne lo
> selbri i mi sruma le du'u mintu va'o le nu sumti tcita

How are they tagji jorne lo selbri? And what are mintu?

---
And