Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:16:39 -0500 (EST)
From: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject: Re: mamta be ma
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Reply-to: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
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> >> So "lo mamta be koha .e kohe" means koha and kohe are siblings?
> >
> >I think so.

lojbab:
> Not necessarily.  "lo mamta" can be plural.  But then you get distributive
> sentences under logical expansion.

"lo mamta" can be plural, but they would all be mothers of both ko'a and
ko'e. I don't understand what you mean by the distributive sentences.

And:
> > > How would you say "the mothers of Jorge and And"?
> > Perhaps {lei mamta be la xorxes a la and}.
>
> That could refer to just your mum.

Yes, you'd have to rely on the specificity of {lei}. Goran's suggestion
is slightly more specific:

> > If you want to be specific, perhaps
> > {role jizmamta/cabmamta be la xorxes. .a la .and.}? :)

And:
> Why jiz-, cab-?

I think that's where the :) comes in. Just even more specific.

> > If you want to be precise, I don't see any way of shortening {le mamta
> > be la xorxes be'o e le mamta be la and}.
>
> I see another way, though not always a shorter one:
>
> Ax, x is a member of {Xorxe, And}: I met the mother of x.
>
> (Ax, x is a member of {Xorxe, And}, Ey, y is mother of x: I met y.)
>
> (I hope that works. If not I can rely on you to spot the error.)

:) It seems to work.

> There might be a way to do that without using a prenex.
>
>    I met lo mamta be xohu ro luha luhi la xorxes ce la and
>
> (I've guessed at the syntax of that.) Xohu is the UI indicating
> scope leaping.

That doesn't work for me. The Ey is before the Ax in your Lojban sentence.
If {xo'u} is supposed to reverse this, I don't really see how it works
in general.

Jorge