Message-Id: <199501202341.AA24329@nfs2.digex.net>
Date:         Fri, 20 Jan 1995 17:20:13 EST
Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: ago (LONG and la'a incorrect :))
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@access.digex.net>
Status: RO

coi goran

> > i drata  i ku'i le'i go'i ku ku'a le'i se go'i na du le gunti
>
> .i gunti ki'a

i oise'i zo kunti  i le kunti cu se cmima noda

...........

> > Is it really so weird? I thought it was more or less evident.
> > Given that {ki} marks the origin, all I meant was that {le ckule}
> > was the origin.
>
> It ba'e marks the origin. It takes the origin as stated by another
> tense marker and makes it ba'e stick. That's why it's called sticky
> tense marker, or tense default marker.

And doesn't that imply that its sumti complement has to become the origin?
What else could it mean?

>  But I still don't think ZI/VA classes are not useful
> as they are. Tell me, which FAhA would you use for 'somewhere around
> the school, not too far' which is what {va le ckule} conveys?

{to'o le ckule}, which you and Lojbab didn't like.

To me, if {lei verba cu kelci to'o le ckule} implies that the playing
faces away from the school, then {lei verba cu kelci zu'a le ckule}
implies that it faces left of the school. I thought that the FAhAs
show the position of the event relative to the origin, and not where
the event faces.

> What we already have does not do the job. We have two options:
> 1) make new, completely different definitions for existing cmavo

Completely different? No cmavo would change meaning. Only the
constructions "ZI <sumti>" and  "VA <sumti>" would change meaning.


> xorxes proposes that we change the meaning of {VI/ZI <sumti>} to
> mean the distance rather that offset,

[Note on vocabulary: "offset" means the same as "displacement" to me.
I propose that the sumti be the displacement (or offset) instead
of the origin.]

> so that we can express those
> sentences as
>
>   lei verba cu kelci va lo mitre beli cino
>   mi klama lo zarci za lo djedi beli re
>
> I don't know how he proposes to translate "The children are playing
> around the school",

        lei verba cu kelci ru'u le ckule

> much less "The children are playing 30 metres
> from the school".

        lei verba cu kelci to'o le ckule va lei cino mitre

> xorxes, your turn. (I hope I did not misquote
> your thoughts.)

Only slightly mis.  :)

> co'o mi'e. goran. noi darsi co ciksi loi sidbo befi la xorxes. vau vau zo'o

co'o mi'e xorxes noi zanru le nu la goran ciksi sy zo'onaicai

> to .u'i .i lo'u vau vau le'u xajmi gi'eri'abo se fanva fi la gliban.
> lo bangrxrvatska zoi gy. Wuff! Wuff! .gy. .u'i toi

i bau la sanban lo'e gerku cu cusku zoi sy !guau, guau! sy