Return-Path: Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rVf1G-00007TC; Sat, 21 Jan 95 14:34 EET Received: from fiport.funet.fi (fiport.funet.fi [128.214.109.150]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA19030 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 1995 14:34:16 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (MAILER@SEARN) by FIPORT.FUNET.FI (PMDF V4.3-13 #2494) id <01HM3WRVO2V4000C5O@FIPORT.FUNET.FI>; Sat, 21 Jan 1995 12:29:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin LISTSERV@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9685; Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:30:46 +0100 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:33:15 +0100 (MET) From: Goran Topic Subject: Re: ago (LONG and la'a incorrect :)) Sender: Lojban list To: Veijo Vilva Reply-to: Goran Topic Message-id: <01HM3WRVP4JM000C5O@FIPORT.FUNET.FI> X-Envelope-to: veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-To: Lojban Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3430 Lines: 90 > And doesn't that imply that its sumti complement has to become the origin? > What else could it mean? Maybe you are right. But then you need to deal with additinal semantic component, stickiness... So, to mark origin with {ki} without making it stick you'd need something like *{ki lo ckule kiku}... Side-effect of which is that you lose the currently stuck-to tense... So, if you have another sticy tense in effect, you'd need {kixipa lo ckule kixipaku}... > > But I still don't think ZI/VA classes are not useful > > as they are. Tell me, which FAhA would you use for 'somewhere around > > the school, not too far' which is what {va le ckule} conveys? > > {to'o le ckule}, which you and Lojbab didn't like. > > To me, if {lei verba cu kelci to'o le ckule} implies that the playing > faces away from the school, then {lei verba cu kelci zu'a le ckule} > implies that it faces left of the school. I thought that the FAhAs > show the position of the event relative to the origin, and not where > the event faces. to'o FAhA4 away from point location tense relation/direction; departing from/directly away from ... ju'ocu'i pe'i FAhA4 is semantically a bit different from other FAhA: fa'a arriving at/directly towards to'o directly away/departing from ze'o outward/receding from zo'a tangential to/passing by zo'i inward/approaching from I can't imagine them not stating direction, or what you think what each of {fa'a/to'o/ze'o/zo'a/zo'i le ckule} means. BTW, see note at the bottom of the tense paper, where is says about {to'o} referring to a ba'e direction relative to speaker/current origin. > > xorxes proposes that we change the meaning of {VI/ZI } to > > mean the distance rather that offset, > > [Note on vocabulary: "offset" means the same as "displacement" to me. > I propose that the sumti be the displacement (or offset) instead > of the origin.] OK, I'll try to stick to your vocab... :) That is not the point of my proposal. :) > > so that we can express those > > sentences as > > > > lei verba cu kelci va lo mitre beli cino > > mi klama lo zarci za lo djedi beli re > > > > I don't know how he proposes to translate "The children are playing > > around the school", > > lei verba cu kelci ru'u le ckule Yes. That's completely correct, but not what I had in mind. This xlation literally means "The children, in their play, surround the school", in the same way the bowl surrounds the soup. My meaning was that some group of children to whom I was referring is playing at a locus in the vicinity of the school. zo'opaunai how many children's games do you know that take enough place to surround the school without the building bothering them? > > much less "The children are playing 30 metres > > from the school". > > lei verba cu kelci to'o le ckule va lei cino mitre That goes back on the {to'o} discussion, I won't get into that again here... > > xorxes, your turn. (I hope I did not misquote > > your thoughts.) > > Only slightly mis. :) .oizo'o I'm no miss, I'm mister. > co'o mi'e xorxes noi zanru le nu la goran ciksi sy zo'onaicai co'o mi'e. goran noi ckire la xorxes. leka zanru -- Learn languages! The more langs you know, the more incomprehensible you can get e'udoCILreleiBANgu.izo'ozo'onairoBANguteDJUnobedocubanRI'a.ailekadonaka'eSELjmi