Message-Id: <m0rioTf-00001pC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sun, 26 Feb 1995 14:20:15 EST
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: indirect commands?
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2376
Lines: 69

la lojbab cusku di'e

> So, how to express (addressing George) "Tell John to meet Mary at the park."

Very interesting. One way to translate it is:

        ko minde la djan le nu dy penmi la maris le panka

Or maybe {sidmi'e}, if {minde} is too strong. But that is not really an
indirect command. That would be:

        ko cusku fi la djan fe le sedu'u kokau penmi la maris le panka

It might work, but there needs to be an audience place in the main
bridi, so that there is a meaningful referent for {ko}.

> This is a recursive problem:  "Tell John to tell Jim to tell Nora to tell
> Mary to meet me in the park."  Nora points out that you can do the same
> thing with indirect questions as well ("Ask/tell John to ask Mary whether she
> will meet Jim in the park.")

That's right. We have subscripts to cover that:

        ko'a djuno le du'u ko'e djuno le du'u makau klama
        She knows that he knows who comes.

        ko'a djuno le du'u ko'e djuno le du'u makauxire klama
        She knows who is it that he knows that comes.

But hopefully people will use clearer forms for this.

> Does kokau work in these indirect commands?

I think it does.

> How does one keep straight who
> "ko" is in multiple levels of commands (I can easily modify that nested
>  recursive command to have the same individual be at multiple levels.)
> "ko"  with subscripts MIGHT work.

Yes, I think that would be the same as with {makau}, although I can't
think of an easy example, because an embedded {ko} doesn't seeem to make
much sense:

        la djan stidi le du'u ko penmi la maris
        Make it true that John suggests that you meet Mary.

It seems too unlikely. But if you wanted to embed that, you could say:

        ko'a cusku fi la erik fe le du'u la djan stidi le du'u kokauxire
        penmi la maris
        She told Eric to make it true that John suggests that he (Eric)
        meet Mary.

Without the {xire} it is simply:

        ko'a cusku fi la erik fe le du'u la djan stidi le du'u kokau
        penmi la maris
        She told Eric that John suggested (to someone) to meet Mary.

I doubt that {kokauxire} would be ever useful (much less further
levels of embedding).

> Or is the problem middle of the night muddled thinking from someone who has
> been studying Russian too much lately?

No, I think it works. At least I can't find a problem with it.

Jorge