Message-Id: <199502051649.AA13232@nfs2.digex.net> From: ucleaar Date: Sun Feb 5 11:49:28 1995 Subject: Re: jorne 05 Feb 95 00:59:53 EST.) <199502050559.AA08953@access4.digex.net> X-From-Space-Date: Sun Feb 5 11:49:28 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Lojbab: > >> I still abhor zi'o and would thus never suggest it %~) > >Is the abhorrence to the notion of creating a new selbri by removing > >a sumti place of another selbri, or is it to the syntactic device of > >filling the sumti place by {ziho}, which looks like a sumti? > The latter. I still prefer tanru/lujvvo approaches to modifying place > structures to add or remove places. > I also tend to think rather more highly of the existing place structures. > Thus I have trouble conceiving of a fastening without an agent. When people > start coming up with specific usage problems, I can then try to resolve them, > but only a real pattern of such problems will convince me that "zi'o lasna" > iss even meaningful. Your description of your objections makes it sound like they are in fact to the former (deriving new selbri by deleting places), in which case I don't share your objections. But if they really are to the actual device of {ziho} to mark deletion of a place, I am inclined to agree with you. My vague recollections of the debate on {ziho} (originally, {xo'e}, I distantly recall) were that they focused on the semantics of deleting places, but not on the syntactic means. Were a different syntactic device employed, perhaps sumti-place deletion would be more frequent and found less objectionable. Personally I would favour 5 cmavo in SE meaning "delete x1/x2/x4/x4/x5", or something similar that wouldn't require extra cmavo, such that the deletion of a sumti-place is indicated by modification of the selbri rather than by filling the deleted place. I think that would make more apparent the lujvo-creating function of ziho. Jorge: > i pe'i au lo me zo zi'o selbri cu selplixau nagi'a dunli > lo na'e me zo zi'o selbri Which means {ziho} is never appropriate? A favoured example when {ziho} was proposed was {klama fo ziho} for teleportation (which I think is like what jeff Goldblum used in The Fly). {klama fo ziho} is semantically equivalent to a tanru/lujvo, in that a new selbri is created. --- And