Message-Id: <m0rh4zS-00001pC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:34:15 EST
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.bitnet@FINHUTC.hut.fi>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: replies re. ka & mamta be ma
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2353
Lines: 61

And:
> "She knows that at least someone will come" doesn't mean "She knows
> who will come", so I'm glad my method doesn't work.

I agree, but we are discussing Lojban, not English, and I think the
consistent thing in Lojban is that {ko'a djuno le du'u makau klama}
does allow that {ko'a djuno le du'u da klama}. Just as {da klama}
is a valid answer to {ma klama}.

> > I am not saying that that is how "who" works in English,
> > but in Lojban, all you are asking of your interlocutor is to fill
> > in the blank.
> But when you try to apply this to 'indirect' interrogatives, things
> get rather strained: "there exists a word such that she knows that
> an entity that that word could describe will come". It's easier
> to simplify to "Ex she knows that x will come".

It looks strained because you are expressing it like that. The easy way
is "she knows what is the answer to the kau-less question".

> How do you get your method to do "Ex she knows that x is the set
> containing everyone who will come"?

You could say:

        ko'a djuno le du'u makau du lo'i ba klama

or:
        ko'a djuno le du'u makau klama romoi

> "There are various words such
> that she knows that the entities that these words could describe
> will come"? How do you distinguish between the two meanings (she
> knows of some of the comers, vs all of the comers)?

How do you ask her to tell you who are all of the comers, vs some of
them? {ma klama} only asks for a partial response. While {ma du lo'i klama}
requires her to tell you what is the whole set.

> I'd thought they were supposed to follow the English model. It
> doesn't matter whether they do, so long as we can express both
>   da zohu koha djuno le duhu da klama
>   da zohu koha djuno le duhu da du lohi klama

The one with {makau} is equivalent to neither of them. It allows for
her knowing that noone will come, and also for just knowing that someone
will come.

> I've already expanded on 'indirect' interrogatives. As for direct
> interrogatives, "Who came?" would be:
>
>   Ex, please cause that I know that da klama
>                                that da du lohi klama

That may be "who came?" but it is not what {ma klama} means. Unless you
don't accept {lo prenu} as an answer.

{ma klama} means: Please fill in the blank in "___ klama" with a sumti,
so as to make it a true statement.

Jorge